Anneca Posted 1 July , 2020 Share Posted 1 July , 2020 I have the Service Record and a photo of a man in his uniform. He served in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and on the outbreak of the Great War in the Royal Irish Rifles. I am confused about his cap badge in the photo, neither the Fusiliers or the Rifles. Does this look more like a Light Infantry badge? Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 July , 2020 Share Posted 1 July , 2020 (edited) It’s a bugle horn on a coiled ‘cord boss’, as worn by rifle regiments officers. In this case it appears to be KRRC as shown. The RIR had a small harp instead. Light infantry officers wore a normal metal badge. Edited 1 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 1 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2020 Very kind of you indeed to take the time to show the badges. Can I assume the RIR image you have posted is similar to the image above the bugle horn in the rather vague photo? Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 July , 2020 Share Posted 1 July , 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Anneca said: Very kind of you indeed to take the time to show the badges. Can I assume the RIR image you have posted is similar to the image above the bugle horn in the rather vague photo? Anne Yes, but your photo cannot be RIR Anne, it’s KRRC, as per the scarlet boss. The RIR reference is either an error, or he served with the KRRC too. KRRC usually no collar badges, whereas RIR officers did have collar badges. Edited 1 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 1 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2020 Thank you. The cap badge does look like the one in your image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 July , 2020 Share Posted 1 July , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Anneca said: Thank you. The cap badge does look like the one in your image. That’s a cracking photo Anne. He is a Warrant Officer Class I - Regimental Sergeant Major of the KRRC. His rank badge, Sam Browne belt, cap badge, black buttons, and absence of collar badges all confirm it. I cannot make out all his medals but the one at far right is the regular army long service and good conduct medal. The marquee in the background (I have strong memories of erecting many such tents) suggest that the photo was taken at a summer training camp. The officers‘ and sergeants’ messes were usually set up in marquees. Edited 1 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 2 July , 2020 Share Posted 2 July , 2020 3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: ...I cannot make out all his medals but the one at far right is the regular army long service and good conduct medal.... By the looks of thing they are - the India General Service Medal with two clasps, Queen's South Africa Medal with three clasps, British War Medal, and the Army LS & GC Medal as already mentioned. The presence of the BWM means the picture must be post-war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 July , 2020 Share Posted 2 July , 2020 6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said: By the looks of thing they are - the India General Service Medal with two clasps, Queen's South Africa Medal with three clasps, British War Medal, and the Army LS & GC Medal as already mentioned. The presence of the BWM means the picture must be post-war. Thank you, that makes sense, he must have been right at the end of his Colour Service. If this can be brought to the attention of the rifles aficionados (Mark - Brockway?) it might well be possible to ascertain his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 2 July , 2020 Share Posted 2 July , 2020 I would say he was with either the 3rd or the 4th Battalion in 1914. Both battalions were in India at the outbreak of the war and left for home in November 1914 and that would, I believe, have entitled him to the British War Medal. As he has only the BWM and no other Great War medals it looks like he remained in the UK for the rest of the war. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 July , 2020 Share Posted 2 July , 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: I would say he was with either the 3rd or the 4th Battalion in 1914. Both battalions were in India at the outbreak of the war and left for home in November 1914 and that would, I believe, have entitled him to the British War Medal. As he has only the BWM and no other Great War medals it looks like he remained in the UK for the rest of the war. Pete. Makes total sense Pete. I hope Mark sees this, I’ve not seen him post for a while. He appears elderly (beyond colour service) to me, and I suspect that he’s been appointed to a war-raised Service Battalion. Edited 2 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 2 July , 2020 Admin Share Posted 2 July , 2020 I've edited the title which may attract the attention of @MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 2 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2020 I appreciate all of your helpful responses. Yes, he attested in the 2nd Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in 1893 when he was 20. He served in India from 12.10.1895 - 21.01.1902, South Africa 24.01.1902 - 08.02.1903, Crete 13.02.1907-25.02.1908, Malta 26.02.1908 - 22.09.1909, China 23.02.1909 - 03.12.1912, India 04.12.1912 - Nov. 1914. He was promoted CSM on 09.10.14. so I reckon that photo would not have been taken until after that date. I also think this would have been his No. 1 uniform for a special occasion otherwise he would not have been wearing his medals. Under provision of Army Order 1 of 1918 he elected not to commence drawing service in excess of 22 years reckoned in the assessment of his service pension due to him on discharge. This was signed by him, stating his Unit was the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, on 4th March 1918, countersigned by the Lieut. Col. Commanding 4th Royal Irish Rifles. (I assume he transferred then to the 4th Bn. RIR). On 02.08.1915 he agreed to continue as a soldier until the end of the war and was discharged on 04.03.1919. On first seeing the photograph I thought it may have been taken in India or perhaps China, but he was not that rank at that time and it makes sense, as suggested, that the tent/marquee behind would have been at a summer training camp, perhaps at home. His name was Thomas William Jones, born in Staffordshire in 1873 so would have been 46 when discharged in 1919. There is no mention in his Service Record of having served in the KRRC but as has already been suggested, he may have served in this at the same time, or most likely post 1919, hence the cap badge. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 July , 2020 Share Posted 2 July , 2020 (edited) Anne his uniform is Service Dress (SD) of rough serge, but specially tailored in a style only authorised for the rank of WOI. A particular feature of the design was bellowed lower pockets (Americanised as ‘cargo’ pockets nowadays). He would have worn it in Britain for formal parades because full dress had been withdrawn. It would have been too hot in India, where stout khaki drill (KD) was worn instead. His entire ensemble uniform is KRRC, and as he is the RSM, it must have been the absolute pinnacle of his career. Short of being commissioned as an officer that was as far as a career soldier could go, and he would have been preeminent in his unit. Edited 2 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 2 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2020 Wow, (I really have to call you) General Frogsmile, What a wealth of information about his uniform. I knew he could not have worn this uniform in India as he was promoted to L/Cpl. and Cpl. during his time there, Colour Sgt. while in Crete and Colour Sgt. Maj. around the time he was in India. Thanks to you I now know his full uniform is KRRC. I had assumed it was RIR, hence my confusion over his cap badge. Most grateful for your input and many thanks. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 7 July , 2020 Share Posted 7 July , 2020 Only just spotted this and have to go offline for a while - will investigate candidates when my 'real life' event has finished! As Frogsmile has pointed out this very senior WO should be identifiable. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Been on this for a couple of days now. I have eliminated a large number of the KRRC's WOIs, but no positive ID as yet. I'll start posting my thoughts shortly. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 10 minutes ago, MBrockway said: Been on this for a couple of days now. I have eliminated a large number of the KRRC's WOIs, but no positive ID as yet. I'll start posting my thoughts shortly. Mark He doesn’t seem to have been with KRRC for very long Mark so I imagine it might well be a tough one to track down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 You're not wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 On 02/07/2020 at 13:42, Anneca said: he attested in the 2nd Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in 1893 when he was 20. He served in India from 12.10.1895 - 21.01.1902, South Africa 24.01.1902 - 08.02.1903, Crete 13.02.1907-25.02.1908, Malta 26.02.1908 - 22.09.1909, China 23.02.1909 - 03.12.1912, India 04.12.1912 - Nov. 1914. He was promoted CSM on 09.10.14. so I reckon that photo would not have been taken until after that date. I also think this would have been his No. 1 uniform for a special occasion otherwise he would not have been wearing his medals. Under provision of Army Order 1 of 1918 he elected not to commence drawing service in excess of 22 years reckoned in the assessment of his service pension due to him on discharge. This was signed by him, stating his Unit was the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, on 4th March 1918, countersigned by the Lieut. Col. Commanding 4th Royal Irish Rifles. (I assume he transferred then to the 4th Bn. RIR). On 02.08.1915 he agreed to continue as a soldier until the end of the war and was discharged on 04.03.1919. On first seeing the photograph I thought it may have been taken in India or perhaps China, but he was not that rank at that time and it makes sense, as suggested, that the tent/marquee behind would have been at a summer training camp, perhaps at home. His name was Thomas William Jones, born in Staffordshire in 1873 so would have been 46 when discharged in 1919. There is no mention in his Service Record of having served in the KRRC but as has already been suggested, he may have served in this at the same time, or most likely post 1919, hence the cap badge. I hate to say it, but I think we already know his name and, apparently, his service details....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 I know. I'll report in full shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 6 minutes ago, headgardener said: I hate to say it, but I think we already know his name and, apparently, his service details....! If you read the whole thread you’ll see It’s not his service records that are being sought, as much as which KRRC battalion he served with, assuming it is actually the same man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Exactly - there's the rub! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 5 minutes ago, MBrockway said: Exactly - there's the rub! Yes, unfortunately it’s that old chestnut of family memory stretching back a 100-years and photographs that were not necessarily correctly annotated, especially if the details were added years after the events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 10 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Thank you all so much for continuing to look at this man's uniform. His photograph was sent to me by my cousin who knew that his grandfather had served with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and that was about all. My cousin's father, my uncle, married the daughter of this man and my cousin remembers this photo was once framed in his parents' home when he was young. After my uncle died he cleared the house and took the photo out of the frame. On the back his mother had simply written "my father" so I know this photo is definitely his grandfather. I decided to find out more about him and have his Service Record. It is the cap badge that has confused me, not RIF or RIR and the British War Medal could not have been issued before 1919. Again, thank you for spending your time on this, Kind regards, Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Was your uncle's wife called Frances Elizabeth JONES, born in Belfast on 23 Jun 1916? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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