Anneca Posted 10 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2020 1 hour ago, MBrockway said: Was your uncle's wife called Frances Elizabeth JONES, born in Belfast on 23 Jun 1916? Mark Yes, that was her and date of birth. Her father married twice, she was the daughter of his first wife who was Ada Mary Smith. They married on 20 September 1915 after he came home from India in 1914. She died giving birth to Frances Elizabeth on 23 June 1916. He married his second wife, Ellen Alexandra Murdoch on 3 September 1917 and they had a son Thomas Jones on 22 September 1918. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Thanks Anne - that is all in his Service History, though Ada's death there is given as 28 Aug 1916 - approx 8 weeks after Frances's birth. Very sad to lose one's mother that way. Do you or the family have Thomas Jones's medals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 10 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Now that is something I didn't know. Things like this happen when handing down family stories without concrete evidence. Yes, this was sad and I can only speculate that he needed to marry again in order to have someone to care for his child. It seems the only family he had lived in England where he was born. I did notice when he attested that his NOK was his sister Polly, who lived in Chester so perhaps his parents had also died. I do not know the whereabouts of his medals. He had three grandsons to Frances Elizabeth, all born after his death, one who died some years ago and lived in Essex. I will contact my other cousin who might know. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 I noticed the Chester connection. The site of the house has been redeveloped unfortunately and is now the back of Marks & Spencers! Do you have a date of death for Thomas William JONES? The Pals may be able to turn up a newspaper obituary and these often give useful clues on military careers. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 10 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2020 Mark, very kind of you to find this information. His death details are: 1941 Belfast newspaper carried the following announcements: "JONES - Ferbuary 9, 1941, at his residence, 59 Nevis Avenue, Thomas W, dearly-loved husband of Ellen Jones, Funeral tomorrow (Tuesday) at 2.30pm to Dundonald Cemetery. Deeply regretted by his sorrowing Wife and Family." "Rechabites Belfast District No 17, Alexandra Tent No 46. The Officers and Members of the above Tent and District are requested to attend the funeral of their late brother, Thomas W Jones." 1941 Belfast newspaper report of death of Mr T W Jones: "FINE TYPE OF VETERAN SOLDIER. The death took place early on Sunday morning at his home, 59 Nevis Avenue, Belfast, of Mr Thomas W Jones, a splendid type of veteran soldier. He had served on the Indian frontier, in the last Boer War, and also as a company sergeant-major in the last war. The late Mr Jones served with the 27th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers for nearly 26 years. His foreign service included ten years in India and eight in China. A native of Stoke-on-Trent, he came to this country after the last war to settle down. He worked in the electrical department of Messrs Harland and Wolff's for some years afterwards, being offered the post of verger in St George's Church, which post he relinquished just three weeks ago. He loved the church, which was his constant and zealous care, and he was deeply respected by all associated with it. It may also be of interest to note that for a number of years the deceased held the rank of regimental sergeant-major in the Down and Connor and Dromore Cadet Battalion of the King's Royal Rifles (Church Lads' Brigade). He leaves a widow, two daughters, and one son. Many will mourn the passing of this fine old warrior." For the first time I have noticed a reference to Down and Connor and Dromore Cadet Battalion of the King's Royal Rifles (Church Lads' Brigade). This would certainly explain the KRRC cap badge. When looking for everything about his Military career through his service record I did not think of looking at any other family information. Your question about his date of death has widened my horizons, in fact it has solved the problem about his cap badge. Thank you so much Mark, I appreciate your help. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 I will alert Johnny Conn to this topic. With his extensive knowledge of the Ulster CLB, he will almost certainly be aware of Thomas Jones. He can also likely advise on whether CLB Cadet senior officers used the KRRC officers cord boss (or 'cherry'). That's a question I have aske myslef many times and it would be very useful to know the answer! I'll post the info I was preparing anyway - it may be of use to you and the family: I was very close to confirming the photo was Jones ... with a good justification. The two remaining sticking points I had were the cord boss showing the strung hunting horn instead of the harp and the RSM rank insignia. Jones definitely did not reach RSM /WOI before he was discharged. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 (edited) Brilliant teamwork Mark and Anne, I was confident you would get there in the end. He would have been acting as an RSM in the CLB cadet Bn, which was rather similar to a regular Colour Sergeant prior to 1915 being appointed as Acting Sergeant Major of battalion (without holding warrant rank) of VF/TF units. His regular substantive rank remained the same, as Mark has pointed out. It was, in effect, an honorary sinecure. Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 July , 2020 Share Posted 10 July , 2020 I've contacted Pal conijoni, so watch this space. Meanwhile I am sure you and the family will find his book very interesting/useful: Ready and Willing - Irish Church Lads in the Great War Cover pic: Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 (edited) Here's the (abridged) Timeline for Thomas Jones I have built from his Service History and other sources. Mark Quote -----------------------------------------------------------------------TIMELINE - JONES, CSM Thomas, 4357, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, latterly Attached 4th (SR) Bn., Royal Irish Rifles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My comments marked [thus] ======================================================================= 13 Sep 1893 to 11 Oct 1895 - HOME: Depot & 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 13 Sep 1893 - Attested for ROYAL INNISKILLING FUSILIERS. Terms 7 + 5 years. Age 20yrs 1m. 15 Sep 1893 - Joined at R INN FUS DEPOT at OMAGH. 05 Dec 1893 - Posted 1st Bn. [Bn was then on Home service somewhere in IRELAND] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 12 Oct 1895 - Posted 2nd Bn. ======================================================================= 12 Oct 1895 to 23 Jan 1902 - Posted INDIA: 2nd R INN FUS ======================================================================= Posting mostly spent in PUNJAB, KASHMIR & NW FRONTIER including Active Service. Summer months spent in Hill Stations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1897-98 - Ops on NW FRONTIER and TIRAH EXPEDITION ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 14 Jul 1899 - Appointed L/CPL (paid) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 26 Oct 1900 - Qualified for SERGEANT RANK. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 30 Nov 1901 - Extended service to complete 12 yrs with the Colours. L/Cpl, 2nd Bn. 28 Dec 1901 - Promoted CPL, 2nd Bn. ======================================================================= 24 Jan 1902 to 08 Feb 1903 - Posted SOUTH AFRICA: 2/R INN FUS ======================================================================= 07 Feb 1902 - Landed in SOUTH AFRICA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1902 - Ops in SOUTH AFRICA, SECOND BOER WAR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 15 Jan 1903 - Transferred to 1st Bn. ======================================================================= 09 Feb 1903 to 12 Feb 1907 - HOME: Depot & 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 13 Apr 1903 - Posted to DEPOT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 23 Jul 1904 - At DEPOT. Appointed LANCE SERGEANT (paid). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 27 Feb 1905 - At DEPOT. Re-engaged to complete 21 yrs with the Colours. L/Sgt, 2nd Bn. 06 May 1905 - Posted to 1st Bn. Appears to retain L/SGT appointment, but *possibly* without pay. [1st Bn was then on Home Service at (TBC) LONDONDERRY/DERRY] 16 Oct 1905 - Arrived at BELFAST. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 01 Aug 1906 - Appointed LANCE SERGEANT (paid). 1st Bn. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 03 Jan 1907 - BELFAST. Medical: Found fit for FOREIGN SERVICE. ======================================================================= 13 Feb 1907 to 25 Feb 1908 - Posted CRETE: 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 13 Feb 1907 - Promoted SERGEANT (paid) 13 Feb 1907 - In transit on board HT 'Sicilia' 24 Feb 1907 - Arrived CRETE ======================================================================= 26 Feb 1908 to 22 Sep 1909 - Posted MALTA: 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 26 Feb 1908 - In transit on board HT 'Sicilia' 28 Feb 1908 - Arrived MALTA ======================================================================= 23 Sep 1909 to 03 Dec 1912 - Posted CHINA: 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 23 Sep 1909 - In transit on board HT 'Soudan' 02 Nov 1909 - Arrived CHINA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 Mar 1910 - TIENTSIN. Re-vaccinated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 02 Apr 1911 - 1911 CENSUS: JONES, Sgt Thomas William. 37yrs. Single. 1st Bn., R Inn Fus, TIENTSIN, CHINA. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 04 Apr 1912 - Awarded Army Long Service & Good Conduct Medal 07 Oct 1912 - PEKING. Medical: Found fit for Service in India. 04 Nov 1912 - Leaves CHINA ======================================================================= 04 Dec 1912 to 09 Nov 1914 - Posted INDIA: 1st R INN FUS ======================================================================= 04 Nov 1912 to 06 Nov 1912 - In transit on board HT 'Soudan' 10 Nov 1912 to 11 Nov 1912 - In HONG KONG 19 Nov 1912 to 03 Dec 1912 - In transit on board HT 'Soudan' 04 Dec 1912 - Promoted COLOUR SERGEANT 05 Dec 1912 - At SECUNDERABAD (South Central India) =======================================================================Aug 1914 - [Start of War] 1 Bn., R Inn Fus at SECUNDERABAD, INDIA 2 Bn., R Inn Fus at DOVER, KENT 3 (SR) Bn., R Inn Fus at OMAGH (also the R INN FUS DEPOT) 4 (SR) Bn., R Inn Fus at ENNISKILLEN 4 (SR) Bn., RI RIFLES at NEWTONARDS ======================================================================= 10 Jan 1915 - 1/R Inn Fus landed at AVONMOUTH returning from INDIA Bn. allocated to 87 Brigade of 29th Division & moved to RUGBY [Jones appears to have returned to UK separately before the Bn] Mar 1915 - 1/R Inn Fus left for GALLIPOLI via EGYPT ======================================================================= 10 Nov 1914 to 04 Mar 1919 - Home ======================================================================= 09 Oct 1914 - Promoted COMPANY SERGEANT MAJOR. [Appears to be 'On Strength' of 1/R Inn Fus but on Home Service] ?? ??? ???? - Posted (on attachment) to ROYAL IRISH RIFLES as DRILL INSTRUCTOR. Rank CSM. ?? ??? ???? - In 4th (Special Reserve) Bn., ROYAL IRISH RIFLES ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ?? Apr 1915 - 4/RIR moves to CARRICKFERGUS 02 Aug 1915 - CSM, 4/RIR (attached). Agreed to continue until the end of the War. 20 Sep 1915 - First Marriage at DUNDELA, BELFAST, Co. DOWN. [With 4/RIR] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ?? Apr 1917 - 4/RIR moves to NEWRY 03 Sep 1917 - Second Marriage at ORMISTON, BELFAST, Co. DOWN. 21 Nov 1917 - NEWRY. Medical Board: Category B 1 [= Garrison Service, Abroad] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ?? Apr 1918 - 4/RIR moves to LARKHILL 04 May 1918 - Medical Board: Category B 1 [= Garrison Service, Abroad]. CSM, 4/RIR. 12 Jul 1918 - Medical Board at LARKHILL: Category B 1. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 05 Feb 1919 - Posted to DEPOT 04 Mar 1919 - Discharged, time expired. At DUBLIN. [R Inn Fus were handled by the Dublin Record Office. He probably did not go there in person] He had completed 25 yrs 173 days Service. 15 Dec 1919 - Receives Gratuity Award in respect of LONG SERVICE & GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL (LSGCM) Edited 11 July , 2020 by MBrockway LSGCM omitted in error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Here is the newspaper report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Battalions and Companies of the Church Lads' Brigade applied for recognition as Cadet Corps from 1911 on. In 1917, the CLB was affiliated to the KRRC. CLB men had formed the 16th Bn KRRC in 1914 and General Lord Grenfell was a Colonel Commandant of the CLB and the KRRC. Between 1917 and 1930, the CLB wore the black buttons of the KRRC, lads wore a KRRC CLB Cadets cap badge, Officers wore a red boss. I recognise this man from photos I held. However, I put a lot of my archive material in PRONI, Public Record Office NI but will look to see if I kept any. Can confirm the tent picture was taken at an All Ireland CLB Camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 11 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2020 I was gobsmacked to find these posts and have placed an order for the book "Ready and Willing" which should give me good reading. Mark, the timeline you have put together is amazing, as is the image on the newspaper report, which I did not have. Thank you "Major" Conijoni. I would not have imagined when I initially asked for help regarding a simple cap badge that so much help and information would be volunteered - a bit like "great oaks from little acorns grow". Thank you gentlemen. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Happy to help. Thanks for buying the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 I found a photo of C Company at the CLB All Ireland Camp 1921. I have tried to do a close up of Mr Jones, back row, just left of centre. Will see if I can turn anything else up. Johnny Conn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 11 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Wow! A fantastic photo indeed. I can recognise him in the photo, and not much different to the only photo I have of him in uniform. I must say you are a genius Johnny, thank you. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Officers at CLB Camp, probably 1921 again. Mr Jones, extreme right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 11 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Oh my goodness, the excitement is overwhelming! Thank you again Johnny. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 July , 2020 Share Posted 11 July , 2020 At the end of the war 4357 Thomas Jones's medals were ... [Source: his Service Record] i.e. INDIA MEDAL 1895 with 2 Clasps PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98 TIRAH 1897-98 QUEEN'S SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL 1902 with 3 Clasps ORANGE FREE STATE TRANSVAAL SOUTH AFRICA 1902 ARMY LONG SERVICE & GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL (Awarded 01 Apr 1912) In addition he would have been awarded the BRITISH WAR MEDAL as he was serving in India at the outbreak of the war and came back 'over the seas' to the UK (more on that later). His medal group (excluding any WW2 Home Guard or similar awards) would therefore look like this ... Compare to the group worn in Anne's photo ... A pretty good match I reckon! Some further observations on the medals ... A. INDIA GENERAL SERVICE MEDAL (1854) vs INDIA MEDAL (1895) With the well known vagaries of tonal reproduction from Great War era orthochromatic film, it can be very difficult to distinguish these two. The ribbon proportions are identical, as are the suspender, the clasp dimensions and the medal diameters. Here's a side-by-side comparison ... Checking the typical clasps for the KRRC and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers gives us Regiment Battalion No of Clasps Clasps Operations India General Service Medal (1854-1895) 27th Foot(later, 1st R Inn Fus) - 1 NORTH WEST FRONTIER for Sittana Field Force operations 1858 108th Foot(later, 2nd R Inn Fus) - 0 - 60th Rifles(later KRRC) 1st 2 HAZARA 1891 SAMANA 1891 for Black Mountain Expedition, etc. NW Frontier 1891 4th 2 NE FRONTIER 1891 BURMA 1889-92 for Manipur Expedition & Ops against Burmese Insurgents 1889-1892 India Medal (1895-1902) Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 1st 0 - 2nd 2 PUNJAB FRONTIER 1897-98 TIRAH 1897-98 for NW Frontier operations 1897-98 King's Royal Rifle Corps 1st 1 RELIEF OF CHITRAL 1895 for Relief of Chitral 1895 Had we not been certain the photo was of 4357 Thomas Jones, then we would have been looking for a KRRC 'Old Sweat' with IGSM (1854) from 1/ or 4/KRRC, who enlisted before 1891 i.e. with a KRRC Old Series Service Number below 6500. 1/, 2/, 3/ and 7/KRRC generally received both the KSA and QSA, whereas 4/KRRC mostly got just the QSA, so I would have started with 4/KRRC. I'm very glad I don't have to do this now! B. BRITISH WAR MEDAL ELIGIBILITY The KRRC medal rolls for the BWM only, without a Victory Medal, contain no Warrant Officer with surname JONES! While hunting, I found riflemen with BWM and without Victory Medal fell into several scenarios Enlisted overseas and then travelled to the UK to join (e.g. from USA) & then never left UK; Travelled from overseas solely to enlist in the UK (e.g. from Rhodesia, Ceylon, Fiji, etc.) & then never left UK; As #1 & #2, but went out after the Armistice to the armies of occupation etc.; Went overseas as Draft Conducting Officer, but did not leave the Lines of Communications areas; WOs and NCOs acting on Escort Duty to France - i.e. similar to DCO above; On Rank & File BWM only Roll, but were commissioned and their full campaign groups are listed on KRRC's Officer Rolls; In India with 3/ or 4/KRRC in Aug 1914. Returned to UK in Nov 1914. Stayed in UK when bns went to France in Dec 1914. Examples of #6 include both Bandmasters and several long service Colour Sergeants, who were obviously extremely valuable on Home Service duties training recruits etc. 4357 Thomas Jones fits #6 exactly, but for 1/Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. C. ARMY LONG SERVICE & GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL Some minor points here, not relevant to identifying Jones, but of mild interest to the general reader. The angle of Jones's LSGCM clearly shows it has the swivel suspender. In 1920 this was replaced with a fixed mount. Before I dived into Jones's service record in earnest and got a 1912 date for his award, I would have used this to get a last possible date for his LSGCM. Working back 18 years would have given me a last possible enlistment date. I was scratching my head about whether service in wartime, but outside a theatre of war (as evidenced by BWM, not pair nor trio) would have reduced the qualifying period. In principle wartime service counted double. Any Pal know how this would work for Home Service Regulars? The LSGCM ribbon only gained its white edge stripes in 1917, yet Jones's ribbon here has them despite his getting the award in 1912. Nearly all the George V period LSGCMs I have come across have the white edges regardless of issue date, so it seems there was some sort of official ribbon replacement campaign. Worth knowing since it prevents us from safely using the LSGCM ribbon as a dating aid. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 12 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2020 Mark, the information you have posted is amazing. I have been meticulously going through his Service Record although you have certainly enlightened me with some details, the regiment, clasps and operations. The medal group you show is certainly a great match with the ones in the photograph. I knew Thomas Jones had not entered the Theatre of War in WW1 as he was not awarded the VM and I had not realised he had switched battalions whilst serving with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Absolutely fantastic information, and thank you for your time posting it, very much appreciated. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 July , 2020 Share Posted 12 July , 2020 20 hours ago, MBrockway said: At the end of the war 4357 Thomas Jones's medals were ... I was scratching my head about whether service in wartime, but outside a theatre of war (as evidenced by BWM, not pair nor trio) would have reduced the qualifying period. In principle wartime service counted double. Any Pal know how this would work for Home Service Regulars? Doh! The question is irrelevant as he was awarded his LSGCM on 01 Apr 1912, well before the start of the Great War. For info, the award was 18 years, 6 months, 19 days after his enlistment on 13 Sep 1893. Anne- thanks for the kind words. Glad you're finding the material useful. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 14 July , 2020 Share Posted 14 July , 2020 Mark. Send your address via my email. Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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