RAMC and what others and where?

[Bernard Major]

This  a photo of my great grandfather Thomas Kent who was in the RAMC during the Great War. He is in the second row, fourth from the left (or the right).  My great grandmother kept it in her purse during the Great War, hence its condition. On the back it reads: "From your loving husband Tommy".

Can anyone  shed any light on this photo? I know my great grandfather, but none of the others. I can see that it has been very much posed as the soldiers seated are arranged - French, then British. Other than that, I am at a loss. Any light you could shed, would be very much appreciated.

I have not been able to locate his war record, nor find him on the medal rolls, so I do not know his regimental number. His war medals were stolen!

 

Many Thanks

Bernard Major

[FROGSMILE]

This is the second photo today where some British soldiers have swapped an item of uniform with French/Belgian personnel as some kind of friendly gesture.  Most of the British soldiers are RAMC, who can be identified by red crosses on their arms, but there are also some infantrymen too. On the right is a Corporal of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and a Private of the Middlesex Regiment.  At rear left is another (probable) infantry soldier, but his cap badge is indistinct.  It seems to be castle shaped so might perhaps be Cambridgeshire Regiment (TF).  Your great grandfather appears to be wearing non military collar badges, a privilege that I think was only afforded to the men who joined the RAMC directly from the St John’s Ambulance Brigade.

Edited 9 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

The only RAMC Thomas Kent I see at present from medal information is #21255 who died of wounds Oct 1917. He was born in London.

Could this be correct?

TEW

[Bernard Major]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This is the second photo today where some British soldiers have swapped an item of uniform with French/Belgian personnel as some kind of friendly gesture.  Most of the British soldiers are RAMC, who can be identified by red crosses on their arms, but there are also some infantrymen too. On the right is a Corporal of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and a Private of the Middlesex Regiment.  At rear left is another (probable) infantry soldier, but his cap badge is indistinct.  It seems to be castle shaped so might perhaps be Cambridgeshire Regiment (TF).  Your great grandfather appears to be wearing non military collar badges, a privilege that I think was only afforded to the men who joined the RAMC directly from the St John’s Ambulance Brigade.

Thank you for these observations which are very helpful. I have a photocopy of a letter from Tommy Kent which shows that he was in Boulogne in December 1914. There is a newspaper report that does not name him, but suggests that he may have joined up immediately the war was announced. He was previously in the St John's Ambulance Brigade, being the first responder in the mine where he worked in Blaengarw, near Bridgend, South Wales, something he continued all his working life.

[Bernard Major]

5 hours ago, TEW said:

The only RAMC Thomas Kent I see at present from medal information is #21255 who died of wounds Oct 1917. He was born in London.

Could this be correct?

TEW

Thank you for that look up. This Tommy Kent survived the war and died in 1962, in bed! He was born in Allerton Bywater, Yorkshire, on 20 December 1881. He has been very difficult to trace!

[Bernard Major]

This is another photo of Tommy Kent taken in the mid 1930s in Blaengarw, near Bridgend, S Wales. He is wearing his Superintendent's uniform of the St John's Ambulance Brigade, and his war medals, which includes the 1914-15 Star, which were stolen and would have provided his serial number.

[Dragoon]

A great photo, and nice to see St John's Ambulance collar badges, very interesting.

It is a great shame his medals were stolen, appalling!

Does Thomas have a middle name by chance?

I too, like TEW, can only find the 21255 chap.

 

Chris 

[headgardener]

His MIC is HERE

.....and his Red Cross record card is HERE

[Bernard Major]

31 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

A great photo, and nice to see St John's Ambulance collar badges, very interesting.

It is a great shame his medals were stolen, appalling!

Does Thomas have a middle name by chance?

I too, like TEW, can only find the 21255 chap.

 

Chris 

No, unfortunately he is just plain Thomas Kent. Thanks for your efforts

[headgardener]

Just to add a bit of context.....

He joined (or was already serving) in the St John’s Ambulance in August 1914. He went to France with the staff of No.9 General Hospital at Boulogne, which earned him a 1914 (or so-called ‘Mons’) star. He continued serving until March 1915 at which point his service with StJJ ceased. I suspect that he transferred to the RAMC at this point. Unfortunately the trail goes cold at this point. His medals were issued by the Red Cross / Order Of St John. There should be an RAMC MIC for him, and I think I recall seeing one for an RAMC S/Sgt who arrived in Egypt in late 1915, but more research is necessary to know whether he’s your man or what further service your man had.

[headgardener]

Some further context (sorry, am having breakfast atm, so a little distracted).....

His transfer to the RAMC would have been voluntary. It’s possible that the photo of him in France(?) shows h8m wearing BRCS/StJJ uniform and wearing an RAMC cap loaned to him by someone else (as is the case with some of the other people in the photo. It’s possible that he returned to the UK in 1915 (as per his BRCS record card) and had no further service abroad. I’ve found several anomalies before with MIC’s to BRCS personnel, so as things stand it’s hard to know exactly what happened after March1915. All I can is that he probably transferred to the RAMC at that stage and may or may not have continued to serve abroad. The MIC would suggest that he didn’t (all his medals were issued by BRCS & StJJ).

EDIT: Typically, when a BRCS man transferred to the army, his 1914\1915 star (assuming he qualified for one) would be issued by th3 BRCS and, assuming he had overseas service with the army, his BW&VM would have been issued by the army. In your mans case, all his medals were issued by the BRCS.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by headgardener

[Bernard Major]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

His MIC is HERE

.....and his Red Cross record card is HERE

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Much appreciated and filled in so much that was lacking before.

[clk]

Hi Bernard,

 

Unfortunately, the medal rolls don't help either. On Ancestry the 14 Star is here, and the British War & Victory Medals here. I didn't find a relevant war diary for 9 General Hospital at the National Archives.

 

Regards

Chris

[headgardener]

2 quick comments.... 

I said that he served with 9 GH in Boulogne, but you'd need to check locations for 9 GH during the period in question (Dec 14 to Mar 15). I'm beginning to think that it wasn't Boulogne. I suspect your photo was taken during that period, and that he's in BRCS /OsTJJ uniform (essentially the same as regular British army battledress) with a borrowed RAMC cap or a cap badge that he was allowed to wear in order perhaps to identify him as staff at the hospital. 

Also, the more I think about it the less likely I reckon it is that he had further overseas service after Mar 1915. It seems to me more likely that he volunteered to transfer to the RAMC and continued working at a hospital in the UK.

I suspect your only other sources are likely to be army service papers (if they exist) or newspaper reports or post-ww1 service records of the OStJJ. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

St John Ambulance Museum & Archive, London 

 

The museum in London is carrying out a project with Heritage Lottery Funding to provide public access to its archive documents relating to the 45,000 volunteers in the First World War.

 

The St John Ambulance Brigade Hospital in Étaples was arguably the most significant initiative of the British Order of St John during the 20th century. Over the course of the conflict, the Hospital received 35,000 patients. It was staffed and maintained principally at the Order’s expense, a unique and unprecedented achievement by a voluntary organisation. Through cartoons, sketches and photographs, volunteer Veronica Nisbet’s scrapbook captures the Hospital’s endeavours to heal and care for the sick and wounded, from a very personal and often humorous perspective, working for the Order’s principle: ‘in the service of humanity’.

 

During the First World War St John Ambulance set up and ran a hospital in Étaples, France. It was funded and staffed by the Order of St John and was well known for its excellent medical facilities and standard of care. Reports were sent back to the Order of St John in London on a weekly basis and provide a fascinating insight into everyday life in a First World War hospital. They detail everything from staff and casualty numbers to entertainments, important visitors and even the weather.

 

To see more about the online Étaples Reports visit the link:

Website: stjohnsgate.wordpress.com Etaples Reports

To find out about the museum, its archives and online records see the museum website:

 

Address: Museum of the Order of St John, St John's Gate, London, EC1M4DA

Telephone: 020 7253 8162

Email: museum@sja.org.uk

Website: www.museumstjohn.org.uk

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Btw, I should mention that the link that I posted to his BRCS / OStJJ record card is from the archive that Frogsmile mentioned in his post. I have no idea whether there are any further ww1 records beyond those record cards, but there should certainly be some post-ww1 records (though it’s possible that they may be held at regional level). The archivists at St John’s Gate should be able to tell you exactly what’s available.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by headgardener

[Bernard Major]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Bernard,

 

Unfortunately, the medal rolls don't help either. On Ancestry the 14 Star is here, and the British War & Victory Medals here. I didn't find a relevant war diary for 9 General Hospital at the National Archives.

 

Regards

Chris

Thanks very much, Chris. All adds to the very little information I had prior to this post.

Thank you both, Head Gardener and Frogsmile. I have been tying to find information for at least 20 years, but was obviously looking in the wrong place and did not have your expertise! Any ideas about the French soldiers?

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

I said that he served with 9 GH in Boulogne, but you'd need to check locations for 9 GH during the period in question (Dec 14 to Mar 15). I'm beginning to think that it wasn't Boulogne.

 

The LLT has it initially at Nantes before moving to Rouen.

Image sourced from the LLT

 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

It’s fairly significant that he is not wearing the standard RAMC arm badge of the Geneva Cross, although it should be noted that unusually neither does the sergeant to the right wearing a French man’s cap.  However, although the swapped cap seems to be RAMC, it’s not 100% positive that the it belonged to the sergeant concerned so it’s possible that he was not RAMC.

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s fairly significant that he is not wearing the standard RAMC arm badge of the Geneva Cross

 

Good point. And his MIC gives his rank on 30 Aug 1914 was ‘Orderly’ while his BRCS / OStJJ record card shows that he was Sergeant Major in March 1915, so the fact that he doesn’t appear to have any rank badges in the photo might suggest that it was taken at an early stage of his service in France.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Good point. And his MIC gives his rank on 30 Aug 1914 was ‘Orderly’ while his BRCS / OStJJ record card shows that he was Sergeant Major in March 1915, so the fact that he doesn’t appear to have any rank badges in the photo might suggest that it was taken at an early stage of his service in France.

Yes, I should think so.  I believe that there would have had to be some degree of formal attachment to the RAMC unit, and probably an agreement between the medical institutions concerned and the War Office for him to be permitted to wear the RAMC cap badge routinely.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bernard Major]

Thank you all for your discussion and insights into my great grandfather's service in the Order of  St John's . If only my 12 year old self had thought to ask him all the questions my seventy year old self has now! Thanks again.

[Dragoon]

I remembered this old thread, there is on post #15 a St John's Ambulance chap wearing an RAMC cap badge.

Don't know if this helps.

Chris 

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

I remembered this old thread, there is on post #15 a St John's Ambulance chap wearing an RAMC cap badge.

Don't know if this helps.

Chris 

 

Yes, it was that exact thread that I had remembered when making my initial reply and mentioning the SJAB collar badges, Chris.

 

What's unusual, though, is that he does not wear the Geneva Cross as was usual for RAMC.  Most of the photos in the old thread that you posted show men wearing SJAB, or BRC cap badges, and they are not actually serving members of the RAMC.

 

In the one photo where a man does wear a RAMC cap badge, he has the Geneva Cross arm badge, and the SJAB standard cloth arm badge.

 

I had thought that the man in this thread today was in the RAMC because he is wearing the cap badge, but other posters have suggested that there is no evidence of him being in anything other than the SJAB.  Ergo it's all a bit inconclusive at the moment.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I had thought that the man in this thread today was in the RAMC because he is wearing the cap badge, but other posters have suggested that there is no evidence of him being in anything other than the SJAB.  Ergo it's all a bit inconclusive at the moment.

 

This particular man's Red Cross service record and medal entitlement indicate that he didn't serve with the RAMC in France, which matches the absence of the badge on his arm.

I have quite a few photos from WW1 of BRCS & OSTJJ men, and maybe a couple of hundred or more of RAMC men. Their uniforms look identical except for the Geneva Cross badge worn by the RAMC men.

There's a couple of my photos which may be relevant to this discussion - I'll try to dig them up this evening.

Basically, I thought St John's men were encouraged to serve in RAMC TF units. It made sense that the army would seek to have use of them as they provided a pool of well trained men (like the men of the Home Hospital Reserve), and who were already familiar with a sort of quasi military structure and training.