Help with identifying a uniform & possible regiment please

[Carol Stewart]

Edited 20 August , 2020 by Carol Stewart

[Sepoy]

15 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

He is a member of the Otago Regiment, New Zealand Expeditionary Force wearing a NZ Lemon Squeezer hat.

[FROGSMILE]

I'll second that. 

 

[Carol Stewart]

Wow! That's a surprise. As far as I know the guy is originally from Shetland and lived most of his adult life in Glasgow and Dunbartonshire. I wonder how he managed to hook up with the NZ Expeditionary Force...?   Going to have to explore that in greater depth...

 

Thanks very much for the helpful information - also, that's a very cute badge. 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

Wow! That's a surprise. As far as I know the guy is originally from Shetland and lived most of his adult life in Glasgow and Dunbartonshire. I wonder how he managed to hook up with the NZ Expeditionary Force...?   Going to have to explore that in greater depth...

 

Thanks very much for the helpful information - also, that's a very cute badge. 

A significant number of ANZACs were first generation and had settled in the antipodes not that long before WW1.

[Sepoy]

2 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

Wow! That's a surprise. As far as I know the guy is originally from Shetland and lived most of his adult life in Glasgow and Dunbartonshire. I wonder how he managed to hook up with the NZ Expeditionary Force...?   Going to have to explore that in greater depth...

 

Thanks very much for the helpful information - also, that's a very cute badge. 

Researching members of the first New Zealand Expeditionary Force, is quite straight forward (and cheap - it's free) by searching here:-
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz

Sepoy

[Carol Stewart]

Thanks for the helpful information. I'm going to have to look at this in some greater depth. My gut instinct tells me that the gentleman in the photo may not be the person that he is believed to be. At face value, I cannot see any reason why he would be in a NZ regiment because there are no apparent links to New Zealand within this family and as far as I can determine, the family did not live there at any stage. 

[pukman]

On 21/08/2020 at 04:39, Sepoy said:

He is a member of the Otago Regiment, New Zealand Expeditionary Force wearing a NZ Lemon Squeezer hat.

Post September 1916, when regulations about the wearing of the felt hat peaked were made universal , for New Zealanders serving in the U.K . Also the Otago's had an earlier badge worn at Gallipoli. Nice image. Cheers Iain/unknown warriors of the NZEF face book page. 

[Sepoy]

10 hours ago, Carol Stewart said:

Thanks for the helpful information. I'm going to have to look at this in some greater depth. My gut instinct tells me that the gentleman in the photo may not be the person that he is believed to be. At face value, I cannot see any reason why he would be in a NZ regiment because there are no apparent links to New Zealand within this family and as far as I can determine, the family did not live there at any stage. 

It might be worth checking the New Zealand Archway Records simply to discount the gentleman you have in mind, or to have a surprise!

Sepoy

[Carol Stewart]

Just a little update on this gentleman...

 

He's not related to me personally but this photo appears in the family tree of someone connected to my family and I think he may have been a friend and work colleague of my great-grandfather. On their family tree, they have posted an image of the Medal Rolls Index card belonging to him. It shows that he served in both the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and the Labour Corps.  He had 2 regimental numbers - 325694 and 378073 respectively.

 

Just cannot fathom why he'd be photographed in an NZ Regiment uniform, so I just wonder if the family have mistakenly assumed that it was him and never considered the possible anomaly of the uniform and hat.

 

Although I have not found the corresponding Medal Rolls Index Card for my great grandfather, birth records for two of the children in the family show that he too served first in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and then in the Labour Corps. The two men were the same age and lived near to each other and both had been shipyard labourers, which - coupled with a more personal matter related to their families - is why I think they were friends and colleagues.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Carol Stewart said:

Just a little update on this gentleman...

 

He's not related to me personally but this photo appears in the family tree of someone connected to my family and I think he may have been a friend and work colleague of my great-grandfather. On their family tree, they have posted an image of the Medal Rolls Index card belonging to him. It shows that he served in both the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and the Labour Corps.  He had 2 regimental numbers - 325694 and 378073 respectively.

 

Just cannot fathom why he'd be photographed in an NZ Regiment uniform, so I just wonder if the family have mistakenly assumed that it was him and never considered the possible anomaly of the uniform and hat.

 

Although I have not found the corresponding Medal Rolls Index Card for my great grandfather, birth records for two of the children in the family show that he too served first in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and then in the Labour Corps. The two men were the same age and lived near to each other and both had been shipyard labourers, which - coupled with a more personal matter related to their families - is why I think they were friends and colleagues.

If you post his name and any additional details concerning his home area I’m sure that there will be forum members willing to attempt to trace his military service.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Carol Stewart]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If you post his name and any additional details concerning his home area I’m sure that there will be forum members willing to attempt to trace his military service.

Thank you. That would be great! 

 

The man in question was called Thomas Sinclair McBeth... although the spelling of his surname varies quite a bit over the years and from place to place. He was born in 1877. It is my belief that throughout the war years and for some times afterwards, he and his family lived at 9 Dunn Street, Dalmuir - which is to the western edge of Clydebank in Dunbartonshire. This is the image of his Medal Rolls index card.

[FROGSMILE]

I personally can’t assist with researching him, but there are excellent genealogical detectives in the forum who can and hopefully one will happen along soon.  Looking at his MIC I’m inclined to agree with you that it seems unlikely that he is the same man seen wearing the NZ insignia and uniform.

Edited 23 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

A six digit service like for a man serving with an infantry battalion automatically send me off to the Long, Long Trail webpage on the 1917 Territorial Force infantry renumbering.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

For a bit of background, up until 1920 a man serving with the Army did not have a unique service number. There were various systems in use and especially amongst the Territorial Force Battalions of each Regiment, each Battalion could have a man with the same service number, which could in some cases even be the same service as a man enlisted in the Regular Army Battalions. So at the start of 1917 each Battalion of the Territorial Force was allocated a number block, for use in renumbering existing members of the Battalion and those that joined it subsequently.

 

The number block 325001 to 350000 was allocated to the 9th Battalions of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders – the 1/9th and 2/9th, (the 3/9th \ 9th Reserve had ceased to exist in September 1916)

 

Given how comparatively low the service number is for Private McBeth, it seems likely he was with the 1/9th either at the start of 1917 or very shortly thereafter. I say likely because the history of the 1/9th is a little bit out of the ordinary.

 

1/9th (The Dumbartonshire) Battalion

August 1914 : at Dumbarton. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.

Early 1915 : left Division and landed in France.

23 February 1915 : came under orders of 81st Brigade in 27th Division.

21 May 1915 : transferred to 10th Brigade in 4th Division and on 27 May amalgamated with 1/7th Bn, resuming identity on 20 July. Left Division and became Corps Troops to VI Corps.

27 February 1916 : moved to base and used as a draft-supplying unit.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-louises-argyll-sutherland-highlanders/

 

The fact that Private McBeth only qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal, as shown on his Medal Index Card, means he did not enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. As the 9th Battalion had been in France since early 1915, that means he did not start with them, and so did did his initial training with another unit in the UK. Without a surviving service record that can be very difficult to track down. One possibility is a reference in local newspapers. Additionally, depending on how the Battalion renumbered there may not be any value in looking for men with nearby service numbers.

 

Unfortunately from my perspective much that is of value on the genealogy side for Scotland is behind the paywall that is ScotlandsPeople.

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

 

From there I can see the birth registration of a Thomas Sinclair MCBEATH in the Tingwall Rural District area in 1877, but I can’t see the details.

 

On other sources I only have transcripts of the Census of Scotland. On the 1881 version, there is a 4 year Thomas S M McBeath, born Shetland Islands, who was recorded in a Parish listed as Nesting Lunnasting Whalsay & Kerries on the Shetlands. His parents were Thomas S. McBeath, a 41 year old Ploughman born Latheron, Caithness, and Ann McBeath, aged 44, born Watten, Caithness. Other than a visitor, there is no-one else in the household.

 

On the 1901 Census the 24 year old Thomas Sinclair MCBETH, a Silk Finisher born on the Shetland Islands, was record as a patient at an institution in the Govan area of Glasgow,

 

Going back to the 1911 Census on ScotlandsPeople I couldn’t find him as McBeath \ McBeth or McBeith.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

[Carol Stewart]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

A six digit service like for a man serving with an infantry battalion automatically send me off to the Long, Long Trail webpage on the 1917 Territorial Force infantry renumbering.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

For a bit of background, up until 1920 a man serving with the Army did not have a unique service number. There were various systems in use and especially amongst the Territorial Force Battalions of each Regiment, each Battalion could have a man with the same service number, which could in some cases even be the same service as a man enlisted in the Regular Army Battalions. So at the start of 1917 each Battalion of the Territorial Force was allocated a number block, for use in renumbering existing members of the Battalion and those that joined it subsequently.

 

The number block 325001 to 350000 was allocated to the 9th Battalions of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders – the 1/9th and 2/9th, (the 3/9th \ 9th Reserve had ceased to exist in September 1916)

 

Given how comparatively low the service number is for Private McBeth, it seems likely he was with the 1/9th either at the start of 1917 or very shortly thereafter. I say likely because the history of the 1/9th is a little bit out of the ordinary.

 

1/9th (The Dumbartonshire) Battalion

August 1914 : at Dumbarton. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.

Early 1915 : left Division and landed in France.

23 February 1915 : came under orders of 81st Brigade in 27th Division.

21 May 1915 : transferred to 10th Brigade in 4th Division and on 27 May amalgamated with 1/7th Bn, resuming identity on 20 July. Left Division and became Corps Troops to VI Corps.

27 February 1916 : moved to base and used as a draft-supplying unit.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-louises-argyll-sutherland-highlanders/

 

The fact that Private McBeth only qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal, as shown on his Medal Index Card, means he did not enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. As the 9th Battalion had been in France since early 1915, that means he did not start with them, and so did did his initial training with another unit in the UK. Without a surviving service record that can be very difficult to track down. One possibility is a reference in local newspapers. Additionally, depending on how the Battalion renumbered there may not be any value in looking for men with nearby service numbers.

 

Unfortunately from my perspective much that is of value on the genealogy side for Scotland is behind the paywall that is ScotlandsPeople.

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

 

From there I can see the birth registration of a Thomas Sinclair MCBEATH in the Tingwall Rural District area in 1877, but I can’t see the details.

 

On other sources I only have transcripts of the Census of Scotland. On the 1881 version, there is a 4 year Thomas S M McBeath, born Shetland Islands, who was recorded in a Parish listed as Nesting Lunnasting Whalsay & Kerries on the Shetlands. His parents were Thomas S. McBeath, a 41 year old Ploughman born Latheron, Caithness, and Ann McBeath, aged 44, born Watten, Caithness. Other than a visitor, there is no-one else in the household.

 

On the 1901 Census the 24 year old Thomas Sinclair MCBETH, a Silk Finisher born on the Shetland Islands, was record as a patient at an institution in the Govan area of Glasgow,

 

Going back to the 1911 Census on ScotlandsPeople I couldn’t find him as McBeath \ McBeth or McBeith.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

Thank you for your very detailed reply, Peter. It's greatly appreciated. 

 

From a genealogical perspective, I already know or have access to the relevant information on this gentleman and his family. I have been in messaging contact with one of his great-grandsons, who has shared with me all he knows. The reason for my enquiry is a weird one but I may as well explain...

 

Early in 1919, my great-grandmother gave birth to illegitimate twins - a girl and a boy. On their birth records it was stated that her husband - my great-grandfather - was not the father of these babies and it stated that at the time of their birth he was serving with the Labour Corps in France.  The twin boy was adopted by Thomas McBeth and his wife, who already had a number of their own children. This was an informal adoption, as this was still legal in Scotland at that time. They changed both his forename and surname from those stated at the time of his birth registration. 

 

Because it was in informal adoption, there is no official paper trail but his original birth certificate still exists and is now retained by his descendants, so they know what his name was at birth and who his biological mother was - i.e. my great-grandmother. He apparently did not know until adulthood that he was a twin and did not know anything about his sister.  

 

As I explained in one of my earlier posts, It is my belief that his birth family and his adopted family knew each other well and the evidence I've unearthed so far points to his adopted father having been a Clydebank shipyard work colleague and armed forces colleague of my great-grandfather who, according to other family birth records served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, before joining the Labour Corps... as did Thomas McBeth.  Of course this may all be pure coincidence but I instinctively feel that there is some more concrete connection there. I do not, however, believe that Thomas McBeth was the biological father of the twins.

 

It is the discovery that both men served in the same two regiments which made me wonder why the man who is supposed to be Thomas McBeth was wearing what appeared to me to be an overseas regiment's uniform in that photo ... hence my enquiry. It just seemed to me to be very anomalous.

 

As far as my own great-grandfather's war service is concerned, although I know that he served in the same two regiments, I have never found anything documentary about him - such as attestation papers or a medal rolls index card. The problem I have with him is that his name was William Jones - and there could be any number of those! I know that he was born in 1877 in Alexandria, Dunbartonshire and can find no trace of him anywhere - or on any census - until he married my great-grandmother in 1903. If anyone can find out anything about HIS war service, that would also be very interesting and helpful... but I have my doubts about how easy that may be. 

[PRC]

13 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

It is my belief that his birth family and his adopted family knew each other well and the evidence I've unearthed so far points to his adopted father having been a Clydebank shipyard work colleague and armed forces colleague of my great-grandfather who, according to other family birth records served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, before joining the Labour Corps

 

14 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

The problem I have with him is that his name was William Jones - and there could be any number of those!

 

May be being too simplistic, but a search of the Medal Index Cards on the National Archive Catalogue using the search criteria:-

First Name = "William"

Last Name = "Jones"

Corps = "Argyll" "Medical"

Only brings up one match.

 

Private 30313 William Jones, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders went on to be 633694 in the Labour Corps. He too only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. Unfortunately I can't find any service record for him.

 

I tried a few searches to see of I could identify a unit of the Argylls he might have served with. A search of the CWGC database doesn't bring up anyone serving with the Argylls and with 5 digit service number starting 303*

 

I then tried going through a near number search of MiCs in the National Archive catalogue - and there weren't many of them. I suspect the card for William Jones may be a digit short and so may be worth checking out the Service Medal Roll. (As it was prepared by a different office, the Labour Corps one, I'm not holding out much hope that any clerical error will just be on the MiC).

Going back to the MiCs, the National Archive has the following for 30300 to 30330 A&SH:-

S/30302 previously 5923, George Lyon. Also on the Silver War Badge Roll.

30307 previously 586 & 3272, Hugh Wilson. But the card itself shows 303079.

30324 previously 1716, Duncan Thomson. But the card itself shows 300324.

30326 previously 6052, Allan Brown. But the card itself shows 303251

S/30327 previously 5544, Daniel O'Brien.

 

So maybe half a step forward

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

 

[Carol Stewart]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

 

May be being too simplistic, but a search of the Medal Index Cards on the National Archive Catalogue using the search criteria:-

First Name = "William"

Last Name = "Jones"

Corps = "Argyll" "Medical"

Only brings up one match.

 

Private 30313 William Jones, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders went on to be 633694 in the Labour Corps. He too only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. Unfortunately I can't find any service record for him.

 

I tried a few searches to see of I could identify a unit of the Argylls he might have served with. A search of the CWGC database doesn't bring up anyone serving with the Argylls and with 5 digit service number starting 303*

 

I then tried going through a near number search of MiCs in the National Archive catalogue - and there weren't many of them. I suspect the card for William Jones may be a digit short and so may be worth checking out the Service Medal Roll. (As it was prepared by a different office, the Labour Corps one, I'm not holding out much hope that any clerical error will just be on the MiC).

Going back to the MiCs, the National Archive has the following for 30300 to 30330 A&SH:-

S/30302 previously 5923, George Lyon. Also on the Silver War Badge Roll.

30307 previously 586 & 3272, Hugh Wilson. But the card itself shows 303079.

30324 previously 1716, Duncan Thomson. But the card itself shows 300324.

30326 previously 6052, Allan Brown. But the card itself shows 303251

S/30327 previously 5544, Daniel O'Brien.

 

So maybe half a step forward

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks for all your hard work Peter. 

 

I went back to check my great-grandfather's A&SH Battalion on his daughter's birth record and indeed it states that he was in the 1st/9th Battalion... which you seem to think was probably the same battalion as Thomas McBeth. I think the whole picture certainly suggests that they did indeed serve together in both the Argylls and the Labour Corps and this would seem to indicate that they were friends for some years.

 

I am more convinced than ever that the photo I posted above is of a completely different man and not Thomas McBeth. Unless the family have another photo of him which is comparable I think this is probably not him. My dilemma then is... should I tell his great-grandson of my findings or just let it lie? I don't know if there's anything to be gained by telling them - or indeed if doing so might actually make them consider trying to find out who this man actually is. If they have a photo of this man because it's been passed down to them within the family... it presumably means he is connected to them in some way.

 

I'll have to give that some thought... 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Carol Stewart]

10 hours ago, Carol Stewart said:

Thanks for all your hard work Peter. 

 

I went back to check my great-grandfather's A&SH Battalion on his daughter's birth record and indeed it states that he was in the 1st/9th Battalion... which you seem to think was probably the same battalion as Thomas McBeth. I think the whole picture certainly suggests that they did indeed serve together in both the Argylls and the Labour Corps and this would seem to indicate that they were friends for some years.

 

I am more convinced than ever that the photo I posted above is of a completely different man and not Thomas McBeth. Unless the family have another photo of him which is comparable I think this is probably not him. My dilemma then is... should I tell his great-grandson of my findings or just let it lie? I don't know if there's anything to be gained by telling them - or indeed if doing so might actually make them consider trying to find out who this man actually is. If they have a photo of this man because it's been passed down to them within the family... it presumably means he is connected to them in some way.

 

I'll have to give that some thought... 

 

The forum board is telling me that you have responded again this morning, Peter...about an hour ago  but I can't see anything. It may just be a glitch but if not, please do post again. 

[PRC]

44 minutes ago, Carol Stewart said:

The forum board is telling me that you have responded again this morning, Peter...about an hour ago  but I can't see anything. It may just be a glitch but if not, please do post again. 

 

Just a glitch it would seem - I've only come on the forum for the first time this morning at 11.10.

 

I have been thinking about it though and the jury would have to be out on whether the two men ever served in the same unit at the same time. If the William Jones for whom I've identified a Medal Index Card is the right man, then even with a missed digit it's a struggle to see how the addition of another digit anywhere in the number 30313 would place it in the number block 325001 to 350000. Of course he could have transferred into the 9th Battalion, (either 1/9th or 2/9th) after the new service number range was in use. As he already had an existing A&SH service number, he would not have had to change.

 

Most of those who had seen overseas service with other units before being posted to the Labour Corps were transferred because, as a result of wounds or ill-health, they were not considered physically fit enough for the front line, but still of use to the Army. Having been trained for combat those near the front line could also put down their tools and pick up their weapons if they were needed - which was the case both after the German counter-attack at Cambrai at the end of November 1917 and many times during the various phases of the German Spring Offensive of 1918.

 

Considering the large Labour Corps service number gap between the two individual - Thomas McBeth was 378073 and William Jones was 633694 - it's unlikely but not entirely impossible that the two served in the same unit or were even in the same country.

 

Without going into the family history in depth - what happened to the girl twin? Human beings chuck up all kinds of anomalies, so there is a real danger in over generalisation, but if a married couple are so estranged that the child is identified as illegimate on the birth certificate, it would seem odd that the husband would then place the child with a friend living nearby where it's likely he would then be seen by the husband on a regular basis. Of course if the daughter stayed with her mother and the mother was reconciled with the husband, then possibly the husband had a change of heart. Otherwise isn't it equally likely that the informal adoption came about as a result of the mothers' friendship with the McBeths, giving her a chance to see the child grow up.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Carol Stewart]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Just a glitch it would seem - I've only come on the forum for the first time this morning at 11.10.

 

I have been thinking about it though and the jury would have to be out on whether the two men ever served in the same unit at the same time. If the William Jones for whom I've identified a Medal Index Card is the right man, then even with a missed digit it's a struggle to see how the addition of another digit anywhere in the number 30313 would place it in the number block 325001 to 350000. Of course he could have transferred into the 9th Battalion, (either 1/9th or 2/9th) after the new service number range was in use. As he already had an existing A&SH service number, he would not have had to change.

 

Most of those who had seen overseas service with other units before being posted to the Labour Corps were transferred because, as a result of wounds or ill-health, they were not considered physically fit enough for the front line, but still of use to the Army. Having been trained for combat those near the front line could also put down their tools and pick up their weapons if they were needed - which was the case both after the German counter-attack at Cambrai at the end of November 1917 and many times during the various phases of the German Spring Offensive of 1918.

 

Considering the large Labour Corps service number gap between the two individual - Thomas McBeth was 378073 and William Jones was 633694 - it's unlikely but not entirely impossible that the two served in the same unit or were even in the same country.

 

Without going into the family history in depth - what happened to the girl twin? Human beings chuck up all kinds of anomalies, so there is a real danger in over generalisation, but if a married couple are so estranged that the child is identified as illegimate on the birth certificate, it would seem odd that the husband would then place the child with a friend living nearby where it's likely he would then be seen by the husband on a regular basis. Of course if the daughter stayed with her mother and the mother was reconciled with the husband, then possibly the husband had a change of heart. Otherwise isn't it equally likely that the informal adoption came about as a result of the mothers' friendship with the McBeths, giving her a chance to see the child grow up.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Thanks Peter - yes indeed, it was apparently just a glitch.

 

It's entirely possible that nothing still exists by way of documentation of my great-grandfather's war service records. I know this is a commonplace situation, so it is possible that the William Jones that you did find, is not him anyway.

 

Regarding the girl twin, who was called Annie, at the moment I have a theory about what happened to her upbringing, but as yet I have no definitive proof. The release of the 1921 Census next year should either prove or disprove it so I may just have to be patient...  The theory I have is that she may have been brought up my my great-grandmother's older sister in Glasgow. This woman was divorced in 1914 and remarried in 1915 but there were no children born during her second marriage. Although she had several children with her first husband, they all emigrated to the USA with their father in 1923. I have no idea what the circumstances of the divorce were but I suspect it may have been very acrimonious.  It may be that she had been denied access to her own children after the divorce, so she may have been happy to bring up her niece with her second husband.

 

She died in 1937 and her husband died in 1938. The following year, the girl twin got married and she ended up living in Yorkshire... but I have no actual timeline for her life thereafter at present. 

 

Thanks again for all this research you've done. It's been very helpful. I'm away for a few days from tomorrow morning, so I'll look at all of this stuff again when I return.