MG Ammunition box.

[Ypres1915]

Hi,

 

I recently added this box to the collection. It is Canadian made and dated 1915 (Stamped into the wood) and 1917 (stencil applied). What I'm curious about is the "Machine gun use only" label. Why would a standard ammunition box for 303 ammunition need this type of stamp?

 

Thanks,

 

Ypres1915

[MikB]

Possibly already belted? Much less convenient for rifle use than bandolier-packed chargers.

[Chasemuseum]

I presume that it was shipped with Mk VIII cartridges, and probably in paper boxes rather than belts.

Cheers

Ross

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Chasemuseum said:

I presume that it was shipped with Mk VIII cartridges, and probably in paper boxes rather than belts.

Cheers

Ross

I think not in 1917. I don't think there ever was a vanilla cordite Mk. VIII, and the nitrocellulose-propelled Mk. VIIIz wasn't approved until 1938.

The big black overstamp on the (very) partial label, over the part that appears to say 'Cartridges ????? Ball', might be the remains of a 'VII' - dunno.

This where we miss TonyE, though I'm not sure even he could've answered this one. :-(

[Pete_C]

I don't believe the 'for machine guns only' is contemporary to the crate's manufacture date of 1917 - the font is more modern looking. During the late 1990's large quantities of 1940's and earlier dated nickel bulleted MkVII 303 ammunition appeared briefly on the market in the UK. The rounds I saw were packed loosely in a variety of old wooden crates all designated as 'for machine guns only'. I think the designation represented a downgrade of old ammunition by the MoD as being only suitable for use in MG training, probably in the 1950's. I saw thousands of rounds at a dealer's premises - they were all Mk VII and all nickel bulleted - the newest date I recall was 1943, which may coincide with the switch over to copper jacketed bullets ? I was lucky enough to acquire 250 rounds of MkVIIz 1918 dated - manufactured by Birmingham Metals and Munitions Co.

Edited 31 August , 2020 by Pete_C

[MikB]

31 minutes ago, Pete_C said:

I don't believe the 'for machine guns only' is contemporary to the crate's manufacture date of 1917 - the font is more modern looking. 

...

That's a good point - from memory the machine gun font looks like the 'Stencil Sans' font I saw on 1950s Mk. 7 ball boxes. But the level of fade looks very similar to the other writing - could be chance, or storage conditions of course - don't see how we're ever gonna know. 

[Pete_C]

12 minutes ago, MikB said:

That's a good point - from memory the machine gun font looks like the 'Stencil Sans' font I saw on 1950s Mk. 7 ball boxes. But the level of fade looks very similar to the other writing - could be chance, or storage conditions of course - don't see how we're ever gonna know. 

Perhaps to support my theory, or just confuse things further, these bandoliers were fairly commonplace in the UK twenty or so years ago - I picked up five of them, all identical. A May 1918 dated Mk II bandolier with a December 1946 inspection stamp marked “M.G.” - I believe it’s an inspection as opposed to a refilling stamp on the basis that in 1946 I can’t see why newly manufactured rifle ammunition, in chargers, would be designated for MG use - I’m more inclined to think the bandolier contained its original 1918 ammunition, now downgraded. My theory falls apart if all rifle ammunition packed in bandoliers around 1946 was designated as ‘chargers’ and ‘MG’. I have a dozen or so bandoliers from this era, none of which include the MG designation but that’s not to say they don’t exist - I’m also working on the basis that ‘MG’ can only stand for ‘machine gun’ ?

 

Pete
 

 

[MikB]

Hmmm... still dunno - MG was used as a headstamp for Mk.VII 303 by Small Arms Ammunition Factory No 2, Footscray, Melbourne, Australia. 1940 - 1949. 

[Pete_C]

3 hours ago, MikB said:

Hmmm... still dunno - MG was used as a headstamp for Mk.VII 303 by Small Arms Ammunition Factory No 2, Footscray, Melbourne, Australia. 1940 - 1949. 

Yes, good point, the bandolier could well have come from the “Munitions, Gordon Street”, factory in Footscray and clearly MG doesn’t always stand for Machine Gun ! Well that’s my bandolier theory out the window, but I think my initial theory that the “for machine gun use only” stamp was added to the crate some time after the GW and is not indicative of the particular type of ammunition contained therein, still holds water..... for now, maybe.

 

Pete

Edited 31 August , 2020 by Pete_C

[Andrew Upton]

I've seen similarly marked bandoliers that clearly have SAA (presumably the standard abbreviation for "Small Arms Ammunition", unless there was also a manufacturer/packer who chose to confusingly utilize this mark as well) in the same area as the MG marking, so would suggest the designation mark for Machine Gun use is correct:

 

 

 

Edited 1 September , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[MikB]

I still think it's unproven. Although Andrew's bandolier is marked for Greenwood & Batley on the same line as the date, 303 is still SAA whether used for machine guns or not. In WW1 some distinction was made between SAA as standard ball and, for example, AP - think Hesketh Prichard might have referred to that. The Broad Arrow with 'I' makes me wonder if this bandolier was intended for Indian issue.

 

But whatever - it still seems a counterintuitive thing to do to pack rounds into 10-round pockets when it'd have to be laboriously extracted and inserted to belts before use. Not that the army didn't sometimes do counterintuitive things ... 

[Pete_C]

8 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

I've seen similarly marked bandoliers that clearly have SAA (presumably the standard abbreviation for "Small Arms Ammunition", unless there was also a manufacturer/packer who chose to confusingly utilize this mark as well) in the same area as the MG marking, so would suggest the designation mark for Machine Gun use is correct:

 

Andrew, I was inclined to agree until I researched the Footscray production - they had several factories, differentiated by a two digit code, all beginning with 'M', for 'Munitions'  - 'MG' being Gordon Street. I still wasn't convinced until I looked at online images of bandoliers and, for whatever reason, Crayfoot production accounts for a lot of the surviving examples - MF and MW are also quite common - and the location of the code is always adjacent to the charger symbol, as in my example.

 

Pete

 

MikB - the 'I' in ISAA stands for 'inspectorate'

 

Edited 1 September , 2020 by Pete_C

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Pete_C said:

...

 

MikB - the 'I' in ISAA stands for 'inspectorate'

 

Thanks - yes, I wasn't very convinced by the possibility of India issue; I'd've expected it be more clearly readable separately.

 

Col. Barlow's WW2 Smallarms Manual describes how to sort out head-to-tail carton-packed ammunition for use in the Bren, and the same method would have been suitable for the Lewis in either war; but to issue charger-packed for machine gun use in any war seems to me to give the frontline Tommies an extra problem they really didn't deserve to have!

[14276265]

The box has indeed been reused and the restriction of SAA "For use in machine guns only" is due to the liability of the ammunition to cause accidents if the firer's face is close to the breech of the weapon. 

 

{Bandoliers were marked with the maker and date of  ammunition manufacture. Folks are clearly aware of the monograms used, but if not - Australian Filling Factory codes (1949) were:

 

MF - SAAF1, Footscray

MG - SAAF2, Footscray

MH - SAAF3, Hendon

MJ - SAAF4, Hendon

MQ - SAAF5, Rocklea

MW - SAAF6, Welshpool }

[303man]

I think it may be a precursor to the Aircraft use only ammo. for synchronised guns.  

 

"the British introduced in 1917 "Green Label" (or "Green Cross") .303" ammunition specifically for synchronised guns. This was taken from standard production lines, but carefully selected from batches which complied with tighter manufacturing tolerances and gave reliable ignition. This proved successful and was followed up in 1918 by establishing special production lines to make high quality ammunition for this purpose. This was known as "Red Label" (also as "Special for RAF, Red Label", "Special for RAF" and finally "Special").