Mystery soldiers.

[Dragoon]

Photo on OP, right arm, holding swagger stick, he has the spur arm badge.

Chris

[Alisonmallen62]

I can see the tip of an ear but what looks like scarring under the eye by the nose and also under the nose and on the jawline.  This was via expanding the photo on my phone so could be misleading.  I think the hair has been coloured in or touched up.  There dnt appear to be any wound stripes either.

I can see the tip of an ear but what looks like scarring under the eye by the nose and also under the nose and on the jawline.  This was via expanding the photo on my phone so could be misleading.  I think the hair has been coloured in or touched up.  There dnt appear to be any wound stripes either.

[Dragoon]

8 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Photo on OP, right arm, holding swagger stick, he has the spur arm badge.

Chris

 

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Photo on OP, right arm, holding swagger stick, he has the spur arm badge.

Chris

I spotted that too Chris, but after long squinting and rumination I think it’s a freak of light and shadow formed from folds in the cloth.  I’d be interested to know what others think.  In part my conclusion was also based on the fact that a spur badge marks a Roughrider or instructor of equitation as it’s formally known.  They were badges issued and used in units at mounted duty, so I don’t think it could have applied to the soldier shown given his absence of spurs, whip, mounted duty puttees and wearing what appears to be a RWF shoulder title.

Edited 7 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

Just scanned through this thread so apols if this has been raised by others, but it looks to me as if his left arm is prosthetic.  It's very straight and his left shoulder is a little oddly shaped.  Given that his left leg is also dead straight, I wonder if he also sustained wounds there?  Perhaps part of the left leg is also prosthetic?

[Miss Jones]

15 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Just scanned through this thread so apols if this has been raised by others, but it looks to me as if his left arm is prosthetic.  It's very straight and his left shoulder is a little oddly shaped.  Given that his left leg is also dead straight, I wonder if he also sustained wounds there?  Perhaps part of the left leg is also prosthetic?

That's what I said, a prosthetic. It's far too straight isn't it? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I wonder if the original shot shows more of the boots? Is it cropped there?

I agree I also see a trade patch on his right arm.

 

With regard to the limbs:

I agree both left leg and left arm are very straight.

The left hand looks as though it could be  be natural, or a good prosthesis. There aren't any visible hinges on the digits which you might well see in a prosthetic hand that  can form a fist.

However, if we assume that he has lost both his left arm and left leg, and had severe facial and head injuries, would he be likely to don an uniform ever again?

Such injuries must surely have resulted in his discharge from the army.

I can't describe his facial expression as a smile as such, but I'm sure we have all read far more misery and pain into portraits than this man conveys.

In which case one must applaud his spirit in getting up again after suffering whatever he sustained.

 

As regards facial scarring, I'm inclined to think we are seeing a lot of JPEG artefact in the picture, which is I'm afraid to say due to the quality of the digital image.

 

A really High res scan is vital.

 

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Chris Foster]

22 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

However, if we assume that he has lost both his left arm and left leg, and had severe facial and head injuries, would he be likely to don an uniform ever again?

Such injuries must surely have resulted in his discharge from the army.

 

 

I agree, if he had lost a limb/limbs the likely hood would have been a discharge, or a photo of him in Hospital Blues , but not in uniform 

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I spotted that too Chris, but after long squinting and rumination I think it’s a freak of light and shadow formed from folds in the cloth.  I’d be interested to know what others think.  In part my conclusion was also based on the fact that a spur badge marks a Roughrider or instructor of equitation as it’s formally known.  They were badges issued in used in units at mounted duty so I don’t think it could have applied to the soldier shown given his absence of spurs, whip, mounted duty puttees and wearing what appears to be a RWF shoulder title.

 

"a freak of light and shadow formed from folds in the cloth" ......... spot on for the reasons you state.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Miss Jones said:

That's what I said, a prosthetic. It's far too straight isn't it? 

No, I think it’s straight because of how he’s leaning to one side, it is natural to straighten the supporting leg in such a posture.

[headgardener]

3 hours ago, Miss Jones said:

That's what I said, a prosthetic. It's far too straight isn't it? 

 

The arm is very straight, but the hand is wrong for a prosthetic - contemporary lower-arm prostheses tended to have a practical open-handed form. It's just an awkward pose by someone who has been told to stay completely still and not fiddle with his hands while trying to maintain his balance as he half-perches on that podium (which is probably not securely fixed to the floor).

[BOSEB]

On 06/09/2020 at 13:01, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The first shot certainly is a strange one.

As you say, the quality isn't good.

Could you get a High resolution scan rather than a grab shot from a smartphone?

I think the right ear is there, you can just see the upper tip, I guess the rest isn't visible because of the rotation of the head.

I don't feel the face and eyes are disfigured, I think they just show the variation that is normal between the two sides of the face.

However, it seems that the face and the hair do not belong together.

It could be a wig.

But the face does seem a little disproportionally large.

Could the photo be a composite shot, with one man's face superimposed on another body?

Photographers could manipulate images in those days, 70 years before Photoshop.

They invented copy, paste, cut, dodge, burn, mask etc.etc.

I had the same reaction when looking at the picture. The face/head does not fit the rest of the photo. The face is too large and it looks clearer than the rest of the photo.

[Miss Jones]

Thanks everyone so far who's given input. Much appreciated. Here's another guy, I think, he's William Griffith Jones. I need positive proof yet and am hoping to have this confirmed via long list family on ancestry who I've just contacted. But he's a handsome young man. If it is William, I can take comfort in the fact that I know he survived the war and married a lovely lady. 

[FROGSMILE]

Definitely RWF and seems to be wearing the 1914-15 star ribbon, which suggests a photo taken late 1917 into 1918.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Was he from Llanbedrgoch?

[Miss Jones]

35 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Was he from Llanbedrgoch?

The person I refer to yes, llanbedrgochoch, you'll see him living at Croesfryn with his family, father Owen, mother Mary, brothers John and Henry. As I say, i think it's him on the photo but not certain. 

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Miss Jones

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

41 minutes ago, Miss Jones said:

The person I refer to yes, llanbedrgochoch, you'll see him living at Croesfryn with his family, father Owen, mother Mary, brothers John and Henry. As I say, i think it's him on the photo but not certain. 

AVL Spring 1918:

Jones, William Griffith

Croesfryn

92008 Pte., 3rd R.W.F.

Trying to find his MIC, but can't find it at the moment.

And his brother in 1918:

Jones, John Owen Croesfryn 213108 Pte., 7th Sect., G.B.D., R.A., Details, R.F.A.       Both the same in June 1919, but by 1920, WG's entry is printed as: Jones, William Griffith           Croesfryn               T/450562              Pte R.A.M.C.   This must surely be a typo, but I wonder if  he was R.A.S.C judging from the Service number.

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Miss Jones]

15 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

AVL Spring 1918:

Jones, William Griffith

Croesfryn

92008 Pte., 3rd R.W.F.

 

 

Trying to find his MIC, but can't find it at the moment.

 

And his brother:

Jones, John Owen

Croesfryn

213108 Pte., 7th Sect., G.B.D., R.A. Details, R.F.A.

I have photos of uncle John in his uniform. He cared for the horses in the army and on the farm, Croesfryn. Huge shire horses that I remember so well. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 minute ago, Miss Jones said:

I have photos of uncle John in his uniform. He cared for the horses in the army and on the farm, Croesfryn. Huge shire horses that I remember so well. 

That would fit with RFA then.

[Miss Jones]

My 'uncle' John Owen Jones. Always called me Gwynneth Bach. 

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Miss Jones

[IPT]

If William was born 1898, isn't he too young to be the man with the 14/15 star? Also, he has no MIC.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

My father worked for the Milk Marketing Board, and knew every farm in the county.

If they were still farming after 1948, my father would have known them.

1 minute ago, IPT said:

If William was born 1898, isn't he too young to be the man with the 14/15 star? Also, he has no MIC.

Can't find a MIC under his RWF or RAMC/RASC numbers.

[Miss Jones]

3 minutes ago, IPT said:

If William was born 1898, isn't he too young to be the man with the 14/15 star? Also, he has no MIC.

I'll check his birth date. Thanks 👍

[IPT]

Obviously, men did serve underage.

 

According to the LLT, the 3rd Bn were in Ireland in 1918.  Perhaps William served there for the duration?

[Miss Jones]

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

My father worked for the Milk Marketing Board, and knew every farm in the county.

If they were still farming after 1948, my father would have known them.

Can't find a MIC under his RWF or RAMC/RASC numbers.

Yes, it ended up just my nain and John running the farm up to about 1972ish. I'll have to check the date. The family of John had run it from very early 1900s. There was the old house first. Then the new one was built. Still stands now but looks a bit different outside and totally different in! 

1 minute ago, IPT said:

Obviously, men did serve underage.

 

According to the LLT, the 3rd Bn were in Ireland in 1918.  Perhaps William served there for the duration?

Would that be Limerick by any chance?