Hackles and Feathers in the Highland Regiments

[gordon92]

9 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 

Sorry about the delay in replying.  1 SEAFORTH (attached photo - Racecourse, Shanghai, 1939) shows the three types of hackle in use: green for pipers as I recall stated by my late father, front rank standing, second from left, white for the Battalion and, regrettably inconclusive in this this B&W photo, something dark for drummers.  This detail is supplemented by Lt Col Angus Fairrie (ex CO 1 QO HLDRS and Fort George Museum Curator for many years) in his book "Cuidich'n Righ" page 158 "Tropical helmets were introduced for wear in in hot climates in the 1870's and a small version of the hackle was often worn in them.  In the Seaforth Highlanders the pipers wore wore green hackles in their tropical helmets until World War II and the drummers and bandsmen wore red hackles until 1951." He does not differentiate 1 and 2 SEAFORTH but I cautiously note his use of "was OFTEN worn" (my capitalisation) so we are not there yet ...... the jury remains out on whether 2 SEAFORTH drummers "often wore" a white hackle or a red hackle.

 

 

 

Great photo, TullochArd.  I know Angus Fairrie and will shoot him an email asking if he knows further detail about hackles worn by 2nd Seaforth drummers.  Since he lives close to Ft. George, he may even make a trip to the Museum to peruse some relevant pictures.

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This photo of an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders piper wearing an undress doublet gives a fine view of their red hackle in his Wolseley (foreign service) helmet judiciously positioned on the floor in front of him.  Notice the special badge used to secure the feathers in place.

 

This is a great photo.  I have it in my archives also.  The subject is Piper Leonard Planner of the 93rd, and the image is dated 1905 at Poona.  I only just noticed that the hose flashes are double belled at the top.  I don't know if the 91st Pipers also wore the same kind of flashes; none of my images have enough acuity to tell.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

This is a great photo.  I have it in my archives also.  The subject is Piper Leonard Planner of the 93rd, and the image is dated 1905 at Poona.  I only just noticed that the hose flashes are double belled at the top.  I don't know if the 91st Pipers also wore the same kind of flashes; none of my images have enough acuity to tell.

I wonder if Planner served during WW1 and if so whether he survived.

[Derek Black]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I wonder if Planner served during WW1 and if so whether he survived.

This him?

 

CWGC & SNWM

 

Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

This him?

 

CWGC & SNWM

 

Derek.

Looks like it Derek, bloody unlucky to cop it in October 1918.  I’m surprised he’s listed as Private rather than Piper.  I wonder if the war diary will give a clue to circumstances, as a pre-war battalion piper his demise might get a mention.

[Ron Abbott]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looks like it Derek, bloody unlucky to cop it in October 1918.  I’m surprised he’s listed as Private rather than Piper.  I wonder if the war diary will give a clue to circumstances, as a pre-war battalion piper his demise might get a mention.

 

PIPER LEONARD ALFRED PLANNER 8157 Born at Lambeth, Surrey in 1885.  Enlisted in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders as a 'Boy' from the Duke of York's School on the 19th October, 1901.  Posted to the 2nd Battalion in India in February 1902 where he trained as a Piper.  Appointed a Drummer on the 8th May, apparently serving as an (Acting) Piper, and appointed an established Piper, 7th September 1903.  Served about eight years abroad and returned home in 1910.   Discharged, 18th October, 1913. Employed as a chauffeur until recalled as a Reservist for service during the Great War.  Served in France with the 2nd Battalion in the 33rd Division where he was killed in action on the 23rd October, 1918; believed to have been the last Piper to have fallen during the war.  Survived by his widow, Annie Davis (formerly Planner), of 2 Crawford Street, Patrick, Glasgow.  Buried in the Montay British Cemetery, Nord, France; Row A, Grave 29 and commemorated on the Denny and Dunipace War Memorial at Denny. Stirling.

 

(as recorded in Floo'ers O' The Forest - Fallen Pipers of the Great War - Richard Crawford) 

 

Also recorded in Seton & Grant's 'The Pipes of War' as having been 2nd Bn. A&SH.

 

As an aside, his son Leonard Gordon Planner also served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders during WW2.  

Edited 16 September , 2020 by Ron Abbott

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

PIPER LEONARD ALFRED PLANNER 8157 Born at Lambeth, Surrey in 1885.  Enlisted in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders as a 'Boy' from the Duke of York's School on the 19th October, 1901.  Posted to the 2nd Battalion in India in February 1902 where he trained as a Piper.  Appointed a Drummer on the 8th May, apparently serving as an (Acting) Piper, and appointed an established Piper, 7th September 1903.  Served about eight years abroad and returned home in 1910.   Discharged, 18th October, 1913. Employed as a chauffeur until recalled as a Reservist for service during the Great War.  Served in France with the 2nd Battalion in the 33rd Division where he was killed in action on the 23rd October, 1918; believed to have been the last Piper to have fallen during the war.  Survived by his widow, Annie Davis (formerly Planner), of 2 Crawford Street, Patrick, Glasgow.  Buried in the Montay British Cemetery, Nord, France; Row A, Grave 29 and commemorated on the Denny and Dunipace War Memorial at Denny. Stirling.

 

(as recorded in Floo'ers O' The Forest - Fallen Pipers of the Great War - Richard Crawford) 

 

Also recorded in Seton & Grant's 'The Pipes of War' as having been 2nd Bn. A&SH.

 

As an aside, his son Leonard Gordon Planner also served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders during WW2.  

Very interesting Ron.  The Duke of York’s school was one of three founded for the son’s of fallen soldiers (the other’s in Dublin and Dunblane) and, given the regiment he joined, I’d wager that his late father was in either the 91st or 93rd.  He very likely learned to read music and play an instrument, or beat a drum at the school, which was in Chelsea at that time.  There is a comprehensive and interesting history of the school, which sadly no longer belongs to the MOD, linked here: http://www.richardgilbert.ca/achart/public_html/articles/york/scenes.htm

 

Being appointed drummer, but acting piper was a typical ploy that Scottish regiments had to adopt to expand their small official (funded) establishment of pipers.  For historical reasons some regiments were funded for more pipers than others, and repurposing other soldiers was a long-standing resort to bring the number up to an acceptable (musically) strength.  He must have been a good piper to eventually be given one of the established vacancies as a substantive piper.

 

NB. It would be good to cross-reference the day of his death in the battalion war diary, it seems likely that such an old soldier, who was also a well established piper, might get a mention.

 

Edited 16 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Open Bolt]

On 12/09/2020 at 17:24, gordon92 said:

 

Thanks for those interesting photos.  Distinction between hackles and horsehair plumes noted.

 

Prior to the 1881 reforms, the 26th had a pipes & drums while the 90th had a bugle corps.  Post 1881 the 2nd battalion added pipers and drummers who were trained by counterparts from the 1st Seaforth.  I think the 1st battalion did add a separate corps of bugles....see below photo with buglers in the rear.  The old 26th Mullet badge can be seen on the pipers.  So, it appears that both battalions had a band of pipes, drums, and bugles.

 

This is a great picture. Kabul signed? I've had an entertaining google search up and down the Khyber Pass this morning with similar features but not got this position. I shall await Streetview...!

[TullochArd]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

"  .. and I’m intrigued to see the pipers have a Baldric badge that I do not recognise, it seems to have a star shape.  Looking at other photos of pipers the Seaforth had a tradition of wearing such a badge but it appears in a variety of styles, and I’m suspecting that the 1st and 2nd battalions badges might have been variants to reflect their different origins.  It would be interesting to compare them, although that would deviate from this thread on hackles (feathers), and plumes.

 

...... deviation as a small consequence of highlighting a badge that you, most unusually, havn't yet come across! 

 

In brief it is the Duke of Albany's Star and was worn pipers of the 72nd Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders and later 1 SEAFORTH and then 1 QO HLDRS.  It carries the "F" (for HRH Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany and second son of King George III) surmounted by a Ducal coronet within an oval scroll bearing "Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders". 

 

Here's a pretty pathetic image............

 

Edited 16 September , 2020 by TullochArd
..... within and oval scroll (not circular)

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

 

...... deviation as a small consequence of highlighting a badge that you, most unusually, havn't yet come across! 

 

In brief it is the Duke of Albany's Star and was worn pipers of the 72nd Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders and later 1 SEAFORTH and then 1 QO HLDRS.  It carries the "F" (for HRH Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany and second son of King George III) surmounted by a Ducal coronet within an oval scroll bearing "Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders". 

 

Here's a pretty pathetic image............

 

Thank you, that’s brilliant.  I’m always most interested in these 1st/2nd battalion idiosyncrasies.  I don’t think that anyone’s ever drawn them together in a single study and yet there are a surprising number of them, almost all related to the differing bloodlines pre-1881.

[ronmarsden]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img][img]https://i.imgur.co

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img]Another copy photo piper named as Gibson.

Is he 1st Bn Cammeronian?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, ronmarsden said:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img][img]https://i.imgur.co

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img]Another copy photo piper named as Gibson.

Is he 1st Bn Cammeronian?

 

His sporran is 2nd Battalion pattern, Ron, but his plaid brooch is the pattern favoured by the 1st Battalion (i.e. without Cairngorm gem stone), so I’m a bit perplexed.  Either the brooch changed at some point, or he’s perhaps a piper from the 3rd Special Reserve Battalion on the regimental depot strength and wearing a mixture of regimental features.  The brooch with the circular inscribed decoration is apparently that for the pipe major, but it seems remarkably similar to that seen in your photo, whereas the other image shows a much more recent brooch.
 

Edited 16 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 

...... deviation as a small consequence of highlighting a badge that you, most unusually, havn't yet come across! 

 

In brief it is the Duke of Albany's Star and was worn pipers of the 72nd Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders and later 1 SEAFORTH and then 1 QO HLDRS.  It carries the "F" (for HRH Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany and second son of King George III) surmounted by a Ducal coronet within an oval scroll bearing "Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders". 

 

Here's a pretty pathetic image............

 

I’m pleased to say that I’ve managed to find a photo of one.  It seems also that the badge is still worn by the pipes and drums of the Highlanders - 4th Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland.

 

Edited 16 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, ronmarsden said:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img][img]https://i.imgur.co

[img]https://i.imgur.com/QU0ZHHp.jpg?1[/img]Another copy photo piper named as Gibson.

Is he 1st Bn Cammeronian?

 

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

His sporran is 2nd Battalion pattern, Ron, but his plaid brooch is the pattern favoured by the 1st Battalion (i.e. without Cairngorm gem stone), so I’m a bit perplexed.  Either the brooch changed at some point, or he’s perhaps a piper from the 3rd Special Reserve Battalion on the regimental depot strength and wearing a mixture of regimental features.  The brooch with the circular inscribed decoration is apparently that for the pipe major, but it seems remarkably similar to that seen in your photo, whereas the other image shows a much more recent brooch.
 

 The Piper displays many of the uniform attributes of the Cameronians (SR)......2nd Bn style sporran (as has already been mentioned), proper Douglas tartan kilt & plaid, tartan hose, etc.  There remain some points that concern me: the rectangular waistbelt plate seen here was only worn by the Pipe Major, the ostentatious display of what I presume are piping medals, the tying of the plaid with the front fall hanging loose rather than concealed over the shoulder, and the kilt is slightly too low.  I do not think he is a regular.  I would lean toward a piper from one of the Scottish Rifles volunteer battalions.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

 The Piper displays many of the uniform attributes of the Cameronians (SR)......2nd Bn style sporran (as has already been mentioned), proper Douglas tartan kilt & plaid, tartan hose, etc.  There remain some points that concern me: the rectangular waistbelt plate seen here was only worn by the Pipe Major, the ostentatious display of what I presume are piping medals, the tying of the plaid with the front fall hanging loose rather than concealed over the shoulder, and the kilt is slightly too low.  I do not think he is a regular.  I would lean toward a piper from one of the Scottish Rifles volunteer battalions.

Rectangular belt plates were worn by 1st Battalion pipers at least for a period and are shown in various images of them, including the picture of a piper in white doublet that I posted earlier in the thread.  It was the 2nd Battalion that favoured the open frame buckles.  This was one of the several reasons that I said there are a mixture of features in his dress.  It certainly seems possible that he is a member of an auxiliary forces unit, but it’s debatable as to whether he is from a Militia Battalion, or a Volunteer Battalion.

Edited 16 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you, that’s brilliant.  I’m always most interested in these 1st/2nd battalion idiosyncrasies.  I don’t think that anyone’s ever drawn them together in a single study and yet there are a surprising number of them, almost all related to the differing bloodlines pre-1881.

 

That would be an interesting study.  Concerning the pre-1881 bloodlines, it is interesting to note that there was something called the Ellice Committee which in Feb 1881 proposed a Territorial Regiments architecture that was very different from that eventually adopted in July 1881 at least as regards the Scottish regiments: the 26th with the 74th, the 42nd with the 79th, the 71st with the 78th, the 72nd with the 91st, 92nd with the 93rd.  These proposals only survived a few months.  My surmise is that the factor that blew these groupings apart was the 79th's explicit refusal to wear the 42nd's tartan when asked by the War Department.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

That would be an interesting study.  Concerning the pre-1881 bloodlines, it is interesting to note that there was something called the Ellice Committee which in Feb 1881 proposed a Territorial Regiments architecture that was very different from that eventually adopted in July 1881 at least as regards the Scottish regiments: the 26th with the 74th, the 42nd with the 79th, the 71st with the 78th, the 72nd with the 91st, 92nd with the 93rd.  These proposals only survived a few months.  My surmise is that the factor that blew these groupings apart was the 79th's explicit refusal to wear the 42nd's tartan when asked by the War Department.

Yes, I was aware of the Ellice committee proposals.  It wasn’t just the Scottish Regiments proposals that were controversial, although it’s fair to say that the conflicts between tartans, and differences between kilted and non kilted highlanders, not to mention the need to factor in Lowland sensibilities added peculiarly national complications.  However, the idiosyncrasies to which I was referring related to all manner of regiments from the four nations and included a variety of things, including recruiting areas, depot locations, and discussions as to how each regiment’s principal iconography was to be represented in the new insignia.  Inevitably there were perceived winners and losers.

Edited 16 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I was aware of the Ellice committee proposals.  It wasn’t just the Scottish Regiments proposals that were controversial, although it’s fair to say that the conflicts between tartans, and differences between kilted and non kilted highlanders, not to mention the need to factor in Lowland sensibilities added peculiarly national complications.  However, the idiosyncrasies to which I was referring related to all manner of things, including recruiting areas, depot locations and discussions as to how each regiment’s principal icon was to be positioned in the new insignia.  Inevitably there were perceived winners and losers.

 

Yes, there were some winners and losers after the July 1881 reorganizations.  I restrict my comments to the Highland regiments. The characters of the resulting post 1881 Highland regiments came about either by compromise or by acquiescence.  The "compromise" regiments were the HLI, Seaforth, and A&SH.  Here I think there was no dominant partner, and it is in these regiments where battalion distinctions in dress and traditions remained the most significant. In my view, the differences and contentions between the two battalions remained the strongest in the HLI.  The "acquiescence" regiments, where there were indeed winners and losers, were The Black Watch and Gordon Highlanders.  The 73rd (once a 2nd BW battalion) and the 75th became Highlanders overnight, and little of their legacy survived. Here is an excerpt (source: The History of the Gordon Highlanders by Lt Col C Greenhill Gardyne) from an epitaph posted on 1st July 1881 outside the 75th's barracks on Malta "Here lies the poor old 75th, But under God's protection, They'll rise in kilt and hose.....We go to bed the 75th, And rise the Ninety-Twa's!  The 79th, as we are all aware, was a special case remaining a one battalion regiment. 

[gordon92]

On 15/09/2020 at 06:43, TullochArd said:

 

Sorry about the delay in replying.  1 SEAFORTH (attached photo - Racecourse, Shanghai, 1939) shows the three types of hackle in use: green for pipers as I recall stated by my late father, front rank standing, second from left, white for the Battalion and, regrettably inconclusive in this this B&W photo, something dark for drummers.  This detail is supplemented by Lt Col Angus Fairrie (ex CO 1 QO HLDRS and Fort George Museum Curator for many years) in his book "Cuidich'n Righ" page 158 "Tropical helmets were introduced for wear in in hot climates in the 1870's and a small version of the hackle was often worn in them.  In the Seaforth Highlanders the pipers wore wore green hackles in their tropical helmets until World War II and the drummers and bandsmen wore red hackles until 1951." He does not differentiate 1 and 2 SEAFORTH but I cautiously note his use of "was OFTEN worn" (my capitalisation) so we are not there yet ...... the jury remains out on whether 2 SEAFORTH drummers "often wore" a white hackle or a red hackle.

 

 

 

On 15/09/2020 at 16:27, gordon92 said:

 

Great photo, TullochArd.  I know Angus Fairrie and will shoot him an email asking if he knows further detail about hackles worn by 2nd Seaforth drummers.  Since he lives close to Ft. George, he may even make a trip to the Museum to peruse some relevant pictures.

 

TullochArd,

 

Angus Fairrie did not have a decisive answer on the hackles for 2nd Seaforth drummers, but he did offer this:

 

"I am no authority on the hackles worn by Drummers of the 2nd Seaforth, but I think that they probably wore white hackles.  No doubt the photograph albums in the Regimental Museum would prove or disprove the point.

The Drummers of the 1st Seaforth wore red hackles in the tropical helmet and the feather bonnet until 1951 when the battalion, on its return from Malaya, had to produce the Royal Guard for King George VI at Balmoral Castle.  The King noted the red hackles and told the Guard Commander Major WG McHardy that they should only to be worn by the Black Watch.   The 1st Seaforth duly changed them for white hackles. 

However I note that in a photograph of the  massed Pipes and Drums of the 1st  Seaforth and the 11th (Territorial Army) Seaforth taken in 1954, when the Seaforth Highlanders were given  the Freedom of Dingwall, the County Town of Ross-shire,  the TA drummers are still wearing red hackles. The King had died in 1952 and so, no doubt, they felt safe enough!

Best wishes,

Angus"

 

Below is a photo of the 2nd Seaforth Pipes and Drums parading at a military funeral in Dublin circa 1905.  Here the drummers have white hackles in their feather bonnets.

 

Edited 18 September , 2020 by gordon92

[TullochArd]

On 18/09/2020 at 20:20, gordon92 said:

 

 

TullochArd,

 

Angus Fairrie did not have a decisive answer on the hackles for 2nd Seaforth drummers, but he did offer this:

 

"I am no authority on the hackles worn by Drummers of the 2nd Seaforth, but I think that they probably wore white hackles.  No doubt the photograph albums in the Regimental Museum would prove or disprove the point.

The Drummers of the 1st Seaforth wore red hackles in the tropical helmet and the feather bonnet until 1951 when the battalion, on its return from Malaya, had to produce the Royal Guard for King George VI at Balmoral Castle.  The King noted the red hackles and told the Guard Commander Major WG McHardy that they should only to be worn by the Black Watch.   The 1st Seaforth duly changed them for white hackles. 

However I note that in a photograph of the  massed Pipes and Drums of the 1st  Seaforth and the 11th (Territorial Army) Seaforth taken in 1954, when the Seaforth Highlanders were given  the Freedom of Dingwall, the County Town of Ross-shire,  the TA drummers are still wearing red hackles. The King had died in 1952 and so, no doubt, they felt safe enough!

Best wishes,

Angus"

 

Below is a photo of the 2nd Seaforth Pipes and Drums parading at a military funeral in Dublin circa 1905.  Here the drummers have white hackles in their feather bonnets.

 

 

Looks like you'd nailed that mystery gordon92 ....... and glad to hear Colonel Angus is still keeping his hand in on such matters.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

 

Looks like you'd nailed that mystery gordon92 ....... and glad to hear Colonel Angus is still keeping his hand in on such matters.

A red hackle for 1st Bn drummers and a white hackle for 2nd Bn drummers does have some specific rationale, as those had been the colours for the 72nd and 78th Highlanders respectively.  Just as with the 1st Bn Pipers‘ Duke of Albany star, these were attempts to retain some thread of connection and continuity with their forebear regiments.

Edited 20 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

A red hackle for 1st Bn drummers and a white hackle for 2nd Bn drummers does have some specific rationale, as those had been the colours for the 72nd and 78th Highlanders respectively.  Just as with the 1st Bn Pipers‘ Duke of Albany star, these were attempts to retain some thread of connection and continuity with their forebear regiments.

The battalion distinctions in the Seaforth Highlanders seem to be restricted to the Pipes and Drums. As you say, the hackles worn by the drummers reflect those of their antecedent regiments.  Below is a photo of a 72nd drummer (holding a bugle) which can be readily dated to 1855 as the one year that double breasted doublets existed and also the only year that drummers wore white; the red hackle can be seen.  The 2nd battalion pipers further held on to differences with their distinctive sporran and did not have a feather in the glengarry, unlike their 1st battalion counterparts. Interestingly, pipers of both battalions had pipe ribbons of Royal Stuart tartan, a legacy of the 72nd.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, the drummers of the two battalions represented their front of house identity.  The famous photo below of two drummers from the 1st Bn Seaforth in the drummers room at Edinburgh castle also shows the red hackle very well. 

Edited 20 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, the drummers of the two battalions represented their front of house identity.  The famous photo below of two drummers from the 1st Bn Seaforth in the drummers room at Edinburgh castle also shows the red hackle very well. 

Excellent photo which is indeed conspicuously displaying the red hackles.  The military band of the 72nd also wore red hackles.  This was carried forward by the bands of both Seaforth battalions.  I am not entirely sure whether the 2nd Bn band adopted this feature from the 72nd, or whether the 78th band may have also worn red hackles.  This photo shows a 78th group in the 1856-68 time period.  The band boy on the left has a feather bonnet at his feet on which a red hackle may be mounted.

 

[Ron Abbott]

6 hours ago, gordon92 said:

The battalion distinctions in the Seaforth Highlanders seem to be restricted to the Pipes and Drums. As you say, the hackles worn by the drummers reflect those of their antecedent regiments.  Below is a photo of a 72nd drummer (holding a bugle) which can be readily dated to 1855 as the one year that double breasted doublets existed and also the only year that drummers wore white; the red hackle can be seen.  The 2nd battalion pipers further held on to differences with their distinctive sporran and did not have a feather in the glengarry, unlike their 1st battalion counterparts. Interestingly, pipers of both battalions had pipe ribbons of Royal Stuart tartan, a legacy of the 72nd.

 

 

 

 

 

I always believed that the 72nd wore Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan and not Royal Stuart (albeit that they are rather similar!)......do you know when the change occurred?

 

Thanks/Ron