Hackles and Feathers in the Highland Regiments

[gordon92]

21 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

I always believed that the 72nd wore Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan and not Royal Stuart (albeit that they are rather similar!)......do you know when the change occurred?

 

Thanks/Ron

Ron.....

 

Lt. Col. (Retd) Angus Fairrie in Cuidich'n Righ" (published by RHQ Queen's Own Highlanders) writes: "In a letter from Horse Guards dated 19th December 1823, the 72nd received the most welcome news that it was to become a Highland regiment again....It was to be dressed in trews instead of the kilt......It took at least a year to produce the new uniform.  It was unique to the Army: In deference to the Duke of Albany, the 72nd was to wear trews of Royal Stuart tartan in the Prince Charles Edward Stuart sett..."

 

Perhaps, you could explain the difference between the Prince Charles Edward Stuart sett and other setts of the Royal Stuart tartan?

 

Mike

[Ron Abbott]

6 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Ron.....

 

Lt. Col. (Retd) Angus Fairrie in Cuidich'n Righ" (published by RHQ Queen's Own Highlanders) writes: "In a letter from Horse Guards dated 19th December 1823, the 72nd received the most welcome news that it was to become a Highland regiment again....It was to be dressed in trews instead of the kilt......It took at least a year to produce the new uniform.  It was unique to the Army: In deference to the Duke of Albany, the 72nd was to wear trews of Royal Stuart tartan in the Prince Charles Edward Stuart sett..."

 

Perhaps, you could explain the difference between the Prince Charles Edward Stuart sett and other setts of the Royal Stuart tartan?

 

Mike

 

The sett is different.  I think the Scottish Register of Tartans puts it well (quote), "The Prince Charles Edward sett is essentially the Royal Stewart but for the much reduced red square".  It may not seem a lot, but when you see pipe bands/pipers wearing them next to each other, the tartans look distinctively different!  Best known for wearing the Prince Charles Edward Stewart other than the 72nd......was probably the pipe band of the Edinburgh City Police (post 1948 as prior to that they wore Ross).  Photos of them from the early 1960s -

 

 

 

 

[Camerons79]

On 08/09/2020 at 11:57, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not aware of any unit wearing a “black” glengarry.  Do you mean dark blue?  The standard glengarry for both Cameronian’s (SR) and HLI was dark green and identical in shade.  Indeed it was a standard issue for both units and was in small part (i.e. one of several practical reasons) why they operated a joint regimental depot, as it facilitated the supply chain from the ordnance store facilities and RACD. Prior to the Childers Reform they had been differently paired (with other regiments) under the Cardwell’s Localization Act of 1874.

I collect to the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) and though at times we find things going 100 years on (assuming they had remained untouched) that don’t agree with the regulations of a regiment, we see it broken here. 
 

To date, I have owned two swords and several officer glengarries to the Scottish Rifles and both of their scabbards were brown instead of the black we expect to see. This particular example which comes with the owners GREEN Glengarry was an officer of the 1st Battalion. He is Colonel AR MacAllan who was in this famous photo with his HQ at Le Cateau in August 1914. 
He’s on horseback in the Le Cateau listening to his Colonel, Robertson and wearing the Glengarry here. In the 1913 full dress photo he’s in the centre with 3rd from the right with this sword. 

Both battalions never had black glengarries. Only rifle green and in all my 35 years collecting except for put up jobs, never seen a black one. 
 

 

Edited 22 September , 2020 by Camerons79
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Camerons79 said:

I collect to the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) and though at times we find things going 100 years on (assuming they had remained untouched) that don’t agree with the regulations of a regiment, we see it broken here. 
 

To date, I have owned two swords and several officer glengarries to the Scottish Rifles and both of their scabbards were brown instead of the black we expect to see. This particular example which comes with the owners GREEN Glengarry was an officer of the 1st Battalion. He is Colonel AR MacAllan who was in this famous photo with his HQ at Le Cateau in August 1914. 
He’s on horseback in the Le Cateau listening to his Colonel, Robertson and wearing the Glengarry here. In the 1913 full dress photo he’s in the centre with 3rd from the right with this sword. 

Both battalions never had black glengarries. Only rifle green and in all my 35 years collecting except for put up jobs, never seen a black one. 
 

 

You seem to have slightly crossed wires.  As I understand it the mention of a black glengarry was exclusively in connection with pipers (only) of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.  I too have never seen one, but given the references referred to above I’m not ruling their existence out.  
I don’t see any connection with the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles), or any great surprise concerning idiosyncrasies in their uniform and equipment.  With their different lineages as the 26th Cameronian’s and the 90th Perthshire Light Infantry, the successor battalions tried to maintain threads of continuity and identity via small differences in their dress.

Edited 22 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

14 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

The sett is different.  I think the Scottish Register of Tartans puts it well (quote), "The Prince Charles Edward sett is essentially the Royal Stewart but for the much reduced red square".  It may not seem a lot, but when you see pipe bands/pipers wearing them next to each other, the tartans look distinctively different!  Best known for wearing the Prince Charles Edward Stewart other than the 72nd......was probably the pipe band of the Edinburgh City Police (post 1948 as prior to that they wore Ross).  Photos of them from the early 1960s -

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  I had not appreciated the difference.  I looked at the Royal Stuart tartan kilt in my collection (photo below) that is part of the uniform of a 13th Battalion CEF piper.  The large red square, in contrast to the Prince Charles Edward Stuart sett, becomes evident now.

 

Edited 22 September , 2020 by gordon92

[AN Dukie]

On 16/09/2020 at 03:16, Ron Abbott said:

 

PIPER LEONARD ALFRED PLANNER 8157 Born at Lambeth, Surrey in 1885.  Enlisted in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders as a 'Boy' from the Duke of York's School on the 19th October, 1901.  Posted to the 2nd Battalion in India in February 1902 where he trained as a Piper.  Appointed a Drummer on the 8th May, apparently serving as an (Acting) Piper, and appointed an established Piper, 7th September 1903.  Served about eight years abroad and returned home in 1910.   Discharged, 18th October, 1913. Employed as a chauffeur until recalled as a Reservist for service during the Great War.  Served in France with the 2nd Battalion in the 33rd Division where he was killed in action on the 23rd October, 1918; believed to have been the last Piper to have fallen during the war.  Survived by his widow, Annie Davis (formerly Planner), of 2 Crawford Street, Patrick, Glasgow.  Buried in the Montay British Cemetery, Nord, France; Row A, Grave 29 and commemorated on the Denny and Dunipace War Memorial at Denny. Stirling.

 

(as recorded in Floo'ers O' The Forest - Fallen Pipers of the Great War - Richard Crawford) 

 

Also recorded in Seton & Grant's 'The Pipes of War' as having been 2nd Bn. A&SH.

 

As an aside, his son Leonard Gordon Planner also served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders during WW2.  

 

Read this post with interest at the mention of Leonard having been at the Duke of York's Royal Military School.   I am only quoting you to include all the text in one as I know you did not author the stated text, but for the benefit of anyone else that comes across this post I can confirm that Leonard was not a Dukie.  There is no school record for him in any variance of his surname and the 1901 Census seemingly records him at the Gordon Boy's Home in Dover.  I suspect the author of the book may have presumed he was a Dukie because he was at an orphanage in Dover, although the Duke of York's was still in Chelsea at the time he enlisted.

 

All the best

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, AN Dukie said:

 

Read this post with interest at the mention of Leonard having been at the Duke of York's Royal Military School.   I am only quoting you to include all the text in one as I know you did not author the stated text, but for the benefit of anyone else that comes across this post I can confirm that Leonard was not a Dukie.  There is no school record for him in any variance of his surname and the 1901 Census seemingly records him at the Gordon Boy's Home in Dover.  I suspect the author of the book may have presumed he was a Dukie because he was at an orphanage in Dover, although the Duke of York's was still in Chelsea at the time he enlisted.

 

All the best

That’s interesting and makes a lot of sense to me personally as my cousin was educated at the then semi-military Gordon Boys School (the military aspect has since been toned down significantly and it’s now coeducational too).  During my cousin’s time the boys wore glengarry caps in uniform, along with simple cutaway tunics and tartan trews.  He was a drummer in the school’s pipe band, a tradition that had been maintained by the school for a considerable time, although I do not know when it was first formed.

Edited 16 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[AN Dukie]

The orphanage in Dover shared the name  with the renowned Gordon’s School in Bagshot and had a strong Fife and Drums tradition, but was a separate institution. I gather using his name was popular at the time and I imagine it helped with garnering donations/subscriptions! 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, AN Dukie said:

The orphanage in Dover shared the name  with the renowned Gordon’s School in Bagshot and had a strong Fife and Drums tradition, but was a separate institution. I gather using his name was popular at the time and I imagine it helped with garnering donations/subscriptions! 

Thank you.  I hadn’t heard of the Dover orphanage before now and the benefits of any perceived association with Gordon of Khartoum can be imagined.  I found this interesting link concerning the school and showing some photos of the boys: http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/DoverGordon/

Edited 16 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

11 hours ago, AN Dukie said:

 

Read this post with interest at the mention of Leonard having been at the Duke of York's Royal Military School.   I am only quoting you to include all the text in one as I know you did not author the stated text, but for the benefit of anyone else that comes across this post I can confirm that Leonard was not a Dukie.  There is no school record for him in any variance of his surname and the 1901 Census seemingly records him at the Gordon Boy's Home in Dover.  I suspect the author of the book may have presumed he was a Dukie because he was at an orphanage in Dover, although the Duke of York's was still in Chelsea at the time he enlisted.

 

All the best

 

 

No probs.  Thanks for clarifying.