Help to interpret a UK Royal Navy document for 18 year old (my grandfather) who signed up 19 April 1918

[Denise]

Hello and I am so grateful to have found this forum as I have never tried to interpret a record like this before. My grandfather appears to have left his home in Ireland and signed up during WW1 into the UK Royal Navy.  Am I correct that he served on ships Impregnable, Ganges and Southampton? All I can make out was he is listed as Boy 1 in the rating category. Can anyone make out what the other ratings are and give me some insights on what this meant? And why does it say 12 years - is this how long they were obligated to serve?

 

I am also having trouble with the period of service dates - I am reading it as 1915 when it starts.  Why does this differ from the engagement date of 1918?  If it truly is 1915 he would have only been 15 years old.

 

Would he have been on any ships during any battles? Any historical insights or links you can point me to so I may learn more would be greatly appreciated!

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Denise

[Keith_history_buff]

Aforementioned image copyright Ancestry

Hello Denise,
It would appear that he was not suited to a life on the ocean waves, as his desertion on 2nd October 1919 ("run") is mentioned twice.

The Naval Discipline Act had him, and all ratings of the Royal Navy. associated with vessels. HMS Ganges was a "stone frigate" where Boy sailor entrants undertook training up to 1977 or thereabouts.

Hope this is of interest, some more comments are likely to follow from others.

Thanks,

Keith

[Guest]

"Ganges"  and "Impregnable" are not ships- they are Royal Navy bases- for training. The navy tradition is to name its shore establishments (and training ships) as if they were another "HMS". If you look at HMS Ganges and HMS Impregnable on Mr. Wikipedia's Apparatus, then this will tell you more.

    He did serve  on HMS Southampton, which was a "Town" class 4 funnel cruiser (Not to be confused withe later "Towns" such as HMS Belfast) 

 

The entry against his name  on the right is a mystery- It seems to say "Rem"-  short for "removed"  -Whether this was end of  war redundancy or misconduct is a mystery-though there is no further service listed even though he signed on for 12 years. looks like LIFO in modern-speak-Last In First Out

 

[horatio2]

He signed on for a 12-year Continuous Service (CS) engagement. The 12 years started on his 18th birthday. On signing his engagement in October 1915 he would also have been required to present a signed Parental Consent Form. He trained in HMS IMPREGNABLE and HMS GANGES, briefly as a Boy Telegraphist but reverted to Boy Seaman and was later advanced to Ordinary Seaman (Ord) and Able Seaman (AB). His sea service was all in the cruiser HMS SOUTHAMPTON from 30 Dec 1916 until he deserted on 2 Oct 1919. As a result of his desertion he forfeited his Victory Medal and British War Medal.

 

 

 

Edited 17 October , 2020 by horatio2

[The Treasurer]

No battles I'm afraid. Southampton's last action was Jutland in May 1916. She served in various Grand Fleet Light Cruiser Squadrons, based at Scapa Flow, then Rosyth. He'd have seen a lot of the North Sea!

Edited 17 October , 2020 by The Treasurer

[Denise]

So interesting!  Thank you for those responses.  I was honestly shocked to discover this record because he was not known as a reliable kind of guy and his service also reflects that!  His mother died when he was five and I am sure his dad booted him out as soon as he could. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

As a result of his desertion he forfeited his Victory Medal and British War Medal.

 

    But I suspect he stayed long enough to collect his War Gratuity.   Would you know when this was actually paid???? 

[RNCVR]

Be interesting to be able to read that last very faint entry on his Record,  ......S\65 Southampton.

Might be something to do with his last Run entry on2 Oct 1919.

 

Perhaps he wanted out, not wanting to wait for possible demobilization & had enough of sea service.

[RNCVR]

Southampton saw a lot of action early in the war participating in the Battles of Heliogoland Bight, & Dogger Bank, then at Jutland on 31 May-1 Jun 1916.

 

I have a medal group to a rating that was on her for most of the war, then in early 20's transferred to the RCN, awarded his LS medal & clasp serving in the RCN in the Regulating branch.

[Talesofaseadog]

Hi, I served on the last HMS Southampton in the Royal Navy, it has since been scrapped.

I wonder if the Remark is "Run Southampton" with the date being the day he jumped ship and deserted.

My other comment is that boys selected as Telegraphist during boy training were the better ones, so he started well, but life at sea does not suit everyone.

In those days deserting was almost the only way to escape.

He still had 10 years to go.

It was normal practice to sign on for 12 from the age of 18 but he was only 15 when he did this, a big commitment even with your parents permission.

Tony

[RNCVR]

I expect the Navy did not do much, if anything, to recover him, as the Geddes axe was about to fall in the early 20's ending the careers of many ratings.  Its possible John McWilliams service might have been terminated had he remained in, in any event.

Edited 17 October , 2020 by RNCVR

[Talesofaseadog]

The following link gives the HMS Southampton ships logs for her time around South America.

https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-06-HMS_Southampton.htm

According to this site she was in Buenos Aires on 2/10/1919 and left on 4/10/1919.

[Guest]

Thus, he jumped ship in the Argentine. Wonder what happened to him

[Denise]

Thank you so much everyone....this has been so interesting. When it was mentioned that a parental permission form needed to be signed it sparked a memory for me. 

 

He and his brother appear to have left home at 14 and 15 years of age.  His youngest brother went to Dublin to King's Hospital School as a boarder.  He was a "Blue Coat" which at the time meant poor and unable to afford the school.  The school sent me a copy of a letter from the father saying he could not afford to take care of his son.....so it makes a lot of sense that my grandfather - his eldest son....likely also had a signed parental form which allowed him to join the Navy at 15. 

 

It sure sounds like my grandfather didn't fully embrace a life at sea. But that means another mystery - from 1919 to 1936 when he ended up in Saint John's Newfoundland we don't know where he was.  I imagine he dodged WW2 as well - perhaps he had a full life in Argentina?  He died at the age of 55 in 1955.

 

I had never heard any family stories about him being involved in the war, on a ship or jumping ship to run away.  Looks like I have more work to do to solve some mysteries!

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Denise

[RNCVR]

Wonder then how he got from Buenos Aires to Newfoundland in late 1919?

Big difference in climate for both places that time of year!

[RNCVR]

4 minutes ago, Denise said:

I had never heard any family stories about him being involved in the war, on a ship or jumping ship to run away.  Looks like I have more work to do!

 

Stories get passed by word of mouth from family member to family member(s) can change considerably over the years!

After a few years one never knows whats fact & what is fiction.

[Denise]

Just found some good news!  I have been searching to see if he did get any medals and he did!  The last mention on this list is his service number.  The mystery deepens!  Thanks to you all I would never have known to search for these possible medals.

 

Image Copyright Ancestry

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Denise

[RNCVR]

 

Quote

In those days deserting was almost the only way to escape.

He still had 10 years to go

He could have bought his way out Tony but that route was very expensive (especially so early into his engagement) for a young guy with virtually no money.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Denise said:

Just found some good news!  I have been searching to see if he did get any medals and he did!  The last mention on this list is his service number.  The mystery deepens!  Thanks to you all I would never have known to search for these possible medals.

 

Image Copyright Ancestry

 

Sorry Denise - F in the right column means Forfeited.

Edited 17 October , 2020 by RNCVR

[Denise]

I feel like I just lost at the price is right....I can hear the razzing sound.  So no medals for him! Also see an R on the far right so likely a run notification.

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Denise

[Denise]

You are all amazing - I have more information today than I have had in years!  I am hot on the trail!  Looks like he left Argentina in May 1920 and decided he would live in America!  That also didn't last because he married my grandmother in Newfoundland in 1936.  

 

Thank you all SO MUCH for helping with the clues!

 

Image Copyright Ancestry

Edited 17 October , 2020 by Denise

[Talesofaseadog]

I don't know where you live but 2 years ago I visited HMS Caroline in Belfast.

She is a WW1 light cruiser, now a museum and focussed on showing her visitors what life was like for sailors in WW1.

There is a café in the forward mess which is probably like the one your Grandfather was living in, I have attached a picture.

I loved it and would recommend a visit.

 

You may be wondering why he jumped ship when he did, the reality is you will never know but I can offer the following thoughts.

I visited Buenos Aires this year and it is a lovely city, sophisticated and there had been a great deal of British investment in the country.

 

If you look at the ships logs you will see that the number of warrants being read seems to be growing at this time.

Many senior officers thought at that time that harsh treatment was the only way to treat the men, things were changing but slowly.

 

Quite often leave would not be given on the last day in a foreign port, it was in this case but if he was planning to go he would know this.

He was probably Starboard Watch as they had leave on the day he went.

The 2nd was pay day.

 

They had been in this marvellous city in beautiful weather for 2 weeks and so far from home that he would know once the ship left he would be ok.

 

I was once offered the chance to jump ship in the Caribbean island of Mustique including a well paid job, it was only the thought that I would not be able to see my family that stopped me, he had few ties.

 

His document to enter the USA states his job is Seaman, he probably worked on ships until then at least and maybe longer if he met his wife in Newfoundland if you travelled in those days you were either very rich or a Sailor.

Tony

 

[RNCVR]

Wonderful photo of the Seaman's messdeck Tony!

Would love to visit HMS Caroline in Belfast but I am in Canada, perhaps some day....

 

Seems as if John McWilliams got around, however he would have experienced quite a weather change from Argentina to Newfoundland, especially in winter!

 

Thanks....Bryan

[Lawryleslie]

Look closely at the transverse deck-head beams and you can see the hammock slinging hooks. Imagine the chaos at call-the-hands as  matelots dived out of their hammocks to lash-up and stow before breakfast was eaten at the messdeck tables. Lovely photo and brings back memories of my short time on HMS Rapid, an old WW2 destroyer, as a Marine Engineering Artificer Apprentice in 1972. Hammocks were, where possible, slung fore & aft to prevent them swinging in heavy seas as the ship pitched and just imagine the noise from the chains of the port and starboard anchors being let go or weighed. This must have been the most uncomfortable and noisiest of mess decks being so far for'ard. 

Edited 26 October , 2020 by Lawryleslie