Royal Navy Officer Uniform

[Romagne1918]

Is this the rank of a Surgeon Lieutenant in the RNVR, or an Engineer officer?

Edited 6 November , 2020 by Romagne1918

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Romagne1918 said:

Is this the rank of a Surgeon Lieutenant in the RNVR, or an Engineer officer?

 

He is an Engineer, whose colour was purple.  For Surgeons it was red.

 

DISTINCTIONS OF RANK IN THE ROYAL NAVY

1. Admiral of the Fleet.  2. Admiral.  3. Vice-Admiral.

4. Rear-Admiral and Commodore, 1st Class.

5. Commodore, 2nd Class.  6. Captain.

7. Commander.  8. Lieutenant Commander

9. Lieutenant.  10. Sub-Lieutenant, Mate, and Commissioned Warrant Officer.

11. Warrant Officers (non-executive Warrant Officers wear stripe of distinction, cloth as Nos. 19-22).  12. Midshipman.  13. Lieutenant R.N.R.

14. Lieutenant R.N.V.R.  15. Engineer Lieutenant (All engineer officers wear a stripe or stripes of purple between gold stripes of their rank).

16. Surgeon Lieutenant (Medical officers wear red stripes between gold).  17. Instructor Lieutenant (Instructor officers wear light blue stripes).

18. Paymaster Lieutenant (All pay-

masters wear white stripes between gold).

19. Shipwright (Warrant Rank, silver grey stripe).

20. Wardmaster (maroon stripe).  21. Electrician (dark green stripe).  22. Ordnance Warrant Officer (dark blue stripe)  23. Midshipman’s “patch” R.N. (worn on lapel of Collar).  24. Naval Cadet’s “patch” R.N. (worn on lapel of Collar).

 

CAPS

25. Flag Officers.  26. Captains and Commanders

27. All other officers.  28. Petty Officer (Chief Petty Officer similar, but with badge No. 35).

29. Flag Officer’s Cocked Hat (Full dress).

30. Lieutenant’s Cocked Hat (Full dress).

31. Royal Marines, N.C.O. s and lower ranks (badge similar to No. 34 but one colour gilt all over, and lion attached to world).

Note.—Officer’s cap similar but with badge No. 34, and has red piping round crown.

 

CAP BADGES.

32. All officers of R.N.  33. All officers of R.N.R. (Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve the same but lettering R.N.V. over anchor).  34. Royal Marine Officers

35. Chief Petty Officer.  36. Petty Officer (confirmed).

Note.—Caps Nos. 25 to 28 have white tops for summer (May I to Sept. 30) or hot-weather station wear. In winter dark blue cloth top as R,M. cap No. 31. In summer this is also covered by white top which extends

right down to top of red band.

Edited 6 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Romagne1918]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The color is a kind of crimson. Would that still be engineer rather than medical? if an engineer lieutenant what would his role/duties have been aboard one of His Majesty's vessels? Thanks very much!

 

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He is an Engineer, whose colour was purple.  For Surgeons it was red.

 

DISTINCTIONS OF RANK IN THE ROYAL NAVY

1. Admiral of the Fleet.  2. Admiral.  3. Vice-Admiral.

4. Rear-Admiral and Commodore, 1st Class.

5. Commodore, 2nd Class.  6. Captain.

7. Commander.  8. Lieutenant Commander

9. Lieutenant.  10. Sub-Lieutenant, Mate, and Commissioned Warrant Officer.

11. Warrant Officers (non-executive Warrant Officers wear stripe of distinction, cloth as Nos. 19-22).  12. Midshipman.  13. Lieutenant R.N.R.

14. Lieutenant R.N.V.R.  15. Engineer Lieutenant (All engineer officers wear a stripe or stripes of purple between gold stripes of their rank).

16. Surgeon Lieutenant (Medical officers wear red stripes between gold).  17. Instructor Lieutenant (Instructor officers wear light blue stripes).

18. Paymaster Lieutenant (All pay-

masters wear white stripes between gold).

19. Shipwright (Warrant Rank, silver grey stripe).

20. Wardmaster (maroon stripe).  21. Electrician (dark green stripe).  22. Ordnance Warrant Officer (dark blue stripe)  23. Midshipman’s “patch” R.N. (worn on lapel of Collar).  24. Naval Cadet’s “patch” R.N. (worn on lapel of Collar).

 

CAPS

25. Flag Officers.  26. Captains and Commanders

27. All other officers.  28. Petty Officer (Chief Petty Officer similar, but with badge No. 35).

29. Flag Officer’s Cocked Hat (Full dress).

30. Lieutenant’s Cocked Hat (Full dress).

31. Royal Marines, N.C.O. s and lower ranks (badge similar to No. 34 but one colour gilt all over, and lion attached to world).

Note.—Officer’s cap similar but with badge No. 34, and has red piping round crown.

 

CAP BADGES.

32. All officers of R.N.  33. All officers of R.N.R. (Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve the same but lettering R.N.V. over anchor).  34. Royal Marine Officers

35. Chief Petty Officer.  36. Petty Officer (confirmed).

Note.—Caps Nos. 25 to 28 have white tops for summer (May I to Sept. 30) or hot-weather station wear. In winter dark blue cloth top as R,M. cap No. 31. In summer this is also covered by white top which extends

right down to top of red band.

 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Romagne1918 said:

The color is a kind of crimson. Would that still be engineer rather than medical? if an engineer lieutenant what would his role/duties have been aboard one of His Majesty's vessels? Thanks very much!

 

 

 

I disagree, the colour is a typical British naval and military style shade of purple.  Crimson was shown as a very dark red almost like thick blood.

 

The engineering officers were responsible for all machinery, especially, but not confined to the engines of the ship.  They were in charge of all the 'machinist' ratings (technically graded sailors) and were assisted by 'artificers'. As such they were considered 'below decks officers' and frequently treated by officers of the upper deck in a typically British snobbish manner, as tradesmen, rather than gentlemen.

 

Edited 6 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Romagne1918]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks you very much for the information. I always appreciate your expert insights.

 

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I disagree, the colour is a typical British naval and military style shade of purple.  Crimson was shown as a very dark red almost like thick blood.

 

The engineering officers were responsible for all machinery, especially, but not confined to the engines of the ship.  They were in charge of all the 'machinist' ratings (technically graded sailors). As such they were considered 'below decks officers' and frequently treated by officers of the upper deck in a typically British snobbish manner, as tradesmen, rather than gentlemen.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Romagne1918 said:

 

 

 

I am glad to help.

[scottmarchand]

During WW I there were a slightly different range of these colour trades distinctions. I have a period chart at Home I can post - most notably absent from the great information depicted above are colours for Electricians - Green; and Ordnance - Black.  At a later point in time - post 45 IIRC the engineering maroon became the colour for  sick berth attendant and engineers no longer wore the colours at all. I have an RNAS pilot with Engineer colours in the rank lace, and a RND surgeons uniform with the Scarlet and an RND/RNAS Electricians cpa I can post image sof later to show the different styles.

[RNCVR]

Its maroon, (MAd)Medical Administrative branch. He Is an RNVR Lieut, but think 2WWperiod.

 

Best... Bryan

[RNCVR]

39 minutes ago, scottmarchand said:

During WW I there were a slightly different range of these colour trades distinctions. I have a period chart at Home I can post - most notably absent from the great information depicted above are colours for Electricians - Green; and Ordnance - Black.  At a later point in time - post 45 IIRC the engineering maroon became the colour for  sick berth attendant and engineers no longer wore the colours at all. I have an RNAS pilot with Engineer colours in the rank lace, and a RND surgeons uniform with the Scarlet and an RND/RNAS Electricians cpa I can post image sof later to show the different styles.

 

 

I too have Dress uniform for a 1WW Staff Engineer & will show his purple rank lace when I am able to get to my laptop photo database.

 

Best....Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

The colour (engineering) is purple not maroon!

Edited 6 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

49 minutes ago, scottmarchand said:

 most notably absent from the great information depicted above are colours for Electricians - Green; and Ordnance - Black. 

 

 

Ordnance was dark blue. Naval Instructors were light blue.

Executive was always black - ie no colour between the gold lace.

 

Best...Bryan

[horatio2]

To the best of my knowledge theer were no RNVR Engineer Branch officers in WW1. There are certainly no such RNVR officers on the Admiralty medal roll.

[RNCVR]

Engineering was never maroon any period, always purple, & the Engineering branch was first branch to be permitted to wear the Executive curl in 1915.  All other branches were permitted later in war - 1918.

 

 

Edited 6 November , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

4 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

To the best of my knowledge theer were no RNVR Engineer Branch officers in WW1. There are certainly no such RNVR officers on the Admiralty medal roll.

 

Agree, this sleeve lace certainly appears to be 2WW period to me.

If the tunic is named the recipient can be traced in the Navy Lists of the period.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The original poster never said that the uniform was from WW1, he merely asked what branch the uniform depicted.  If he wasn't confused before I suspect that he will be now.

[RNCVR]

You got it mate!  RN uniform rank & branch distinctions can be extremely confusing to a non naval person!

 

Hope you are staying safe!

Best... Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

You got it mate!  RN uniform rank & branch distinctions can be extremely confusing to a non naval person!

 

Hope you are staying safe!

Best... Bryan

Well, in the hope of putting the ship back on course, the sleeve he posted is that for an engineering officer of WW2, as both horatio2 and you have confirmed.

All’s well in the bunker thank you and I hope that you and yours are in fine fettle too. 😷👍

Edited 6 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE