Discharge as "Insane": Pte Ernest Craven 4882 17 Lancers

[rolt968]

Pte Ernest Craven, 4882, 17 Lancers was discharged as Insane (sic) at Netley on 29 September 1914 (at least in theory).

He went to France on 16 August 1914. (Not with 17 Lancers who were in India – probably with 16 Lancers – more later!). He was a reservist.

 

A confused version of his record survives. However at the time of his discharge his record was lost and there are a number of notes from various places asking where his records were and asking for the reserve copies (hence my slight doubt about the date of discharge). Indeed some offices seem to have been unaware of where actually was (including in one case after his death).

 

I have a large number of questions which I hope colleagues can help me with.

 

To start with can anyone please tell me about the procedures involved in discharge for insanity?

 

What documents should have been produced or created (a number are referred to in the record)?

 

Would there have been something like a board and would there have been a report?

 

What would happen to him after discharge – for example would he be sent to civilian mental hospital?

 

Many thanks!

RM

[IPT]

There is a medical record for 2802, (surely an error), E. Craven, 17th Lancers, aged 33. He was admitted to No 2 (General) Hospital on 28/8/1914 with an abrasion on his foot, having been abroad for 3 weeks. Home on SS Asturias. His papers appear to show that he was taken to Cosham hospital on 31/8/1914, before ending up at Netley.

 

His intended residence was given as 2 Little Nursery, Montrose, which would indicate that he didn't go to an asylum. 

 

He died 12th October 1914 in Montrose, Angus, and is buried in Sleepyhillock Cemetery. Possibly suicide?

 

(FMP)

Edited 26 November , 2020 by IPT

[George Rayner]

I found a reference which says he drowned

 

George

[George Rayner]

Portion from Pension Card on Fold3 to whom thanks are due

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, IPT said:

There is a medical record for 2802, (surely an error), E. Craven, 17th Lancers, aged 33. He was admitted to No 2 (General) Hospital on 28/8/1914 with an abrasion on his foot, having been abroad for 3 weeks. Home on SS Asturias. His papers appear to show that he was taken to Cosham hospital on 31/8/1914, before ending up at Netley.

 

His intended residence was given as 2 Little Nursery, Montrose, which would indicate that he didn't go to an asylum. 

 

He died 12th October 1914 in Montrose, Angus, and is buried in Sleepyhillock Cemetery. Possibly suicide?

 

(FMP)

 

50 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

I found a reference which says he drowned

 

George

 

48 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Portion from Pension Card on Fold3 to whom thanks are due

Thank you very much everyone. (I actually have all that information.  I have been building up quite a file since I came across the first information about him.)

 

I have his death certificate and the procurator fiscal's recognition (roughly equivalent to the opinion of an inquest). On 12 October 1914 he killed himself by jumping from a brdge. It's quite a high bridge. Technically he died of his injuries rather than was drowned.

 

The local newspapers say he had suffered a "nervous breakdown".

 

2 Little Nursery was his family home and would presumably be formally given as his intended place of residence. Certainly he was living there when he set off on the morning of 12 October.

 

He didn't sign any discharge documents. I don't know if this was because he was considered incapable or because the papers were missing.

 

I am trying to find out what happened between his being hospitalised with an abraded foot (Should I be suspicious of that?) and his discharge as insane from Netley.

 

"Insane" seems a very stark term nowadays and at least to modern minds it seems surprising that he was simply sent home (assuming that he was).

 

To confuse matters still further, according to the local papers he was attached to the Scots Greys. His medals were issued via 16 Lancers - except that they were returned. The Deopts of 16 and 17 Lancers in 1914 were at Woolwich (Westlake).

 

(The No. 2 General Hospital register must have startled some people as it correctly gives his unit as 17 Lancers.)

 

RM

[IPT]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

2 Little Nursery was his family home and would presumably be formally given as his intended place of residence. Certainly he was living there when he set off on the morning of 12 October.

 

The point I was making was that, in my experience, the intended place of residence would have named an asylum. I looked at a lot of these cases recently.

 

 

 

[rolt968]

20 hours ago, IPT said:

 

The point I was making was that, in my experience, the intended place of residence would have named an asylum. I looked at a lot of these cases recently.

 

 

 

Thank you very much. That's the kind of information I was looking for.

 

There's no doubt at least as far as thenewspapers were concerned that he set off from home on the day he died.  (Ironically there was a large mental hospital a mile or two off his route to the bridge.)

Edited 27 November , 2020 by rolt968

[Matlock1418]

On 26/11/2020 at 13:43, IPT said:

There is a medical record for 2802, (surely an error), E. Craven, 17th Lancers, aged 33. He was admitted to No 2 (General) Hospital on 28/8/1914 with an abrasion on his foot, having been abroad for 3 weeks. Home on SS Asturias. His papers appear to show that he was taken to Cosham hospital on 31/8/1914, before ending up at Netley.

 

On 26/11/2020 at 15:17, rolt968 said:

I am trying to find out what happened between his being hospitalised with an abraded foot (Should I be suspicious of that?)

 

As a Reservist [with likely softened feet] swiftly returning to wear new Army boots and I would not be that surprised by an abrasion(s) [probably a bad blister(s) to you and me, possibly open & infected too]

Might perhaps be more expected for an infantryman I would suggest, but could happen to Hussar I feel sure.

If you can, and I suspect it will be a challenge, perhaps you might consider looking more at the period before hospitalisation at 2GH, and immediately thereafter.

Is there any evidence that he might have been walking more than usual?

Perhaps, for some reason, having gone AWOL for a while without his horse [making away with his horse would certainly have aggravated any charge!] - like after perhaps having a mental breakdown?

If AWOL occurring in a ToW would presumably be likely classed as desertion and a candidate for a court-martial [CM].  Is there an entry in any CM register?

Perhaps there were considered to be extenuating circumstances ??

Or maybe his foot/feet really were in a particularly terrible state. ??

[Though isn't that a candidate for more minor disciplinary action in itself? - Self-inflicted/by neglect of orders pertaining to feet/person - or however/whatever charge KR might perhaps describe? - though I think such would probably be dealt with summarily by his CO, rather than by a CM ??]

One feels that feet alone would have been treated in theatre. ??

So one wonders about the the reason/background for initial return to UK and hospitalisation at Colsham and then to Netley.

Perhaps something(s) to consider.

???

:-) M

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

 

As a Reservist [with likely softened feet] swiftly returning to wear new Army boots and I would not be that surprised by an abrasion(s) [probably a bad blister(s) to you and me, possibly open & infected too]

Might perhaps be more expected for an infantryman I would suggest, but could happen to Hussar I feel sure.

If you can, and I suspect it will be a challenge, perhaps you might consider looking more at the period before hospitalisation at 2GH, and immediately thereafter.

Is there any evidence that he might have been walking more than usual?

Perhaps, for some reason, having gone AWOL for a while without his horse [making away with his horse would certainly have aggravated any charge!] - like after perhaps having a mental breakdown?

If AWOL occurring in a ToW would presumably be likely classed as desertion and a candidate for a court-martial [CM].  Is there an entry in any CM register?

Perhaps there were considered to be extenuating circumstances ??

Or maybe his foot/feet really were in a particularly terrible state. ??

[Though isn't that a candidate for more minor disciplinary action in itself? - Self-inflicted/by neglect of orders pertaining to feet/person - or however/whatever charge KR might perhaps describe? - though I think such would probably be dealt with summarily by his CO, rather than by a CM ??]

One feels that feet alone would have been treated in theatre. ??

So one wonders about the the reason/background for initial return to UK and hospitalisation at Colsham and then to Netley.

Perhaps something(s) to consider.

???

:-) M

That's very interesting. I had been thinking along some of the same lines.

He was a D reservist, having signed on again after he completed his 12 years - so his actual colour service was some years previously. I will check exactly how long. Unfortunately the surviving records do not contain anything about his annual training sessions.

 

I had forgotten how much the British cavalry actually walked (marched?) particularly in August 1914.

I had wondered if there had been an attempted self inflicted wound and someone had taken a sympathetic view.

His record suggests that at some stage he was supposed to be posted to the Remount Service indeed one office seems to have been under the impression that he was there after he had been discharged and was dead.

 

I am beginning to wonder if the surviving records are actually the "reserve" records (their term not mine) and that his original record was never found.

RM

[david murdoch]

See below his actual death certificate and the page with additional details regarding his death.

[Cavalryman24]

The 16th Lancer record of Service Book shows Craven serving with the AVC.

he would be mobilised from the reserve on 5th August 1914 to serve with the 16th Lancers (Queens Own), (According the 16th Lancers Record of Service Book) and attached to the AVC on the 15th the day before his disembarkation in France on the 16th.

Ernest shown as a 17th Lancer, (All 17th Lancer reservists remained wearing the Motto until they were transferred to the AVC in 1915)