Photos of 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers at Ferozepore, India 1908 - Named in War Diary France 1914

[Ivor Anderson]

This photograph of the officers of the 2nd Bn. RIF is taken from a book of photographs (in my possession) taken in Ferozepore, India in 1908. Many of their names appear on the first page of the battalion war diary in December 1914 (TNA ref). Some in the photo died in WW1:

Edited 25 June , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Lt. & Quartermaster J. H. Shannon in 1908 was Major & Quartermaster in the war diary in December 1914:

[Ivor Anderson]

Lt. Col. Charles Conyers died 12 May 1915 aged 46: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/429635/CHARLES CONYERS/

Major Henry Ball Holmes died 27 November 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662686/HENRY BALL HOLMES/

Capt. Osborne O'Hara died 13 February 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1622723/OSBORNE O'HARA/

Edited 25 June , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Major Henry Ball Holmes died 27 November 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662686/HENRY BALL HOLMES/

Headshot picture on the Stevenage at War site - https://stevenageatwar.com/casualties/henry-ball-holmes/

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Lt. & Quartermaster J. H. Shannon in 1908 was Major & Quartermaster in the war diary in December 1914:

That’s a super photo Ivor, thank you for posting it.  At that time it was relatively recent that quarter-masters (QMs) had started wearing the officer’s crimson silk waist sash.  Before 1902 when the officers with combatant commissions were wearing the crimson sash diagonally across the chest, QMs were wearing a black leather pouch belt (also diagonally) with the exception of the Foot Guards.  What struck me as unusual about this photo is that the waist sash comprised of three bands.  I’ve not seen that before and I think it must have been an earlier pattern, as the more commonly seen type comprised a single band.  I must look out for more examples.

Edited 25 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Peter & Frogsmile.

Capt. & Adjt. Frederick Augustus Greer in the above & below photos seems to have been a Major (Temp. Lt. Col.) with the 6th RIF Bn. during WW1.

He was mentioned in despatches at least twice during WW1 - in Jan. 1916 and July 1917: 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29455/supplement/1203

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30196/supplement/7453

In fact, he appears to have become a temporary Brigadier-General by 1918 and have got the DSO: 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30746/supplement/7048  MIC off Ancestry

Edited 26 June , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Looking at this photo of the 2nd Bn. Colour Sergeants in 1908.

I wonder if that is CSM Timothy O'Malley 5367 on the right, who was KIA with the 1st Bn. on 11 May 1917 aged 43: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/780004/TIMOTHY O'MALLEY/

I wonder if G. Coomber became 2nd Lt. (later Lt.) George Scott Coomber of the 2nd RIF (att'd 3rd Bn.) in WW1? 

That seems to be Henry Scovell 3218 on the left who enlisted March 1889. He must have retired pre WW1.

Edited 26 June , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Another photo in the same collection shows Frederick Augustus Greer (front centre) who commanded the 6th RIF in WW1.

Colour Sergeant J. Annett 8033 served in France during WW1 and appears to have been commissioned.

Sergeant John Alexander McMullen 7811 (front right) retired in January 1910 and was discharged at Ferozepore.

Bandmaster Hugh Brady Mitchell 6616 was discharged at Quetta in October 1913.

A CQMS James Fuller 8313 was discharged in May 1917 aged 43, then with the 3rd Battalion RIF.

Sergeant Major Thomas Edward Bunting 2968 appears to have become a Lt. (later Major) Quartermaster during WW1. His son was KIA with the 1st Bn. on 24 August 1918: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/273609/THOMAS EDWARD BUNTING/

 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28678/page/42

Edited 27 June , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[charlie962]

great photos and wonderful moustaches. Thanks for sharing

Charlie

[Andy Shaw]

On 26/06/2021 at 08:14, Ivor Anderson said:

 

I wonder if G. Coomber became 2nd Lt. (later Lt.) George Scott Coomber of the 2nd RIF (att'd 3rd Bn.) in WW1? 

 

He did indeed,

Captain George Scott Coomber – Royal Irish Fusiliers

George Scott Coomber born 20 November 1877, Bermuda, Enlisted as Private 5677 in the Royal Irish Fusiliers, July 1896, Promoted to Sergeant he served to the Boer War; taken Prisoner at Colenso, 15 December 1899, Released at Nooitgedacht 30 August 1900. Returned Home 1902 and married Annie Jane Buckley, 27 January 1904.

 Posted to India April 1904, and promoted to Colour Sergeant, He was a member of the 2^ndBattalion Shooting Team and won the Quetta Rifle association Championship in October 1910. He remained in India with Annie and their two children (William Scott born 1905 and George Alexander born 1911) until returning Home October 1914.

 George was commissioned as a 2^ndLieutenant 21 May 1915 and joined “C” Company 2^ndBattalion Royal Irish Rifles, embarking to Flanders he joined the Battalion 12 June at Bellewaarde and within days of arriving was action at what would be known as the Battle of Bellewaarde.

 Extract from the Battalion Diary June 16^th1915

 The bombardment, by our artillery, commenced at 2.50 a.m., lasting until 4.15 a.m. When the 9th Infantry Brigade assaulted, carrying the first three lines of German trenches. The 2nd R. Irish Rifles supported the left – “C” Company followed by “D” Company on Right, “A” Coy followed by “B” Company on Left with orders to consolidate the first German line. “C” and “D” Companies, carried away by their keenness, pushed through to the 3rd line, closing up with the assaulting troops. These companies were then re-organised and withdrawn in perfect order to the first line, which they put in a state of defence. “ A” Company, was similarly engaged on the left. Owing to heavy artillery fire which soon developed, “B” Company was unable to follow “A” Coy quickly. They were formed up on CAMBRIDGE Road 250 yards behind, preparatory to making another effort to get through, when they were unfortunately shelled by enfilade fire causing 30 or 40 casualties. The remainder of the Company was then with-drawn and kept in battalion support for the remainder of the day.

 During the day, from early morning to midnight, the Battalion was subjected to a terrific artillery bombardment. The Non-commissioned Officers and men of all companies distinguished themselves by their discipline, coolness and steadiness under most trying circumstances. At no time during the day could it be said that they were in any way shaken by their ordeal. For instance, at 3.30 p.m., after hours of bombardment “C” and “D” Companies with very short notice were called upon to attack. They possessed just as much spirit and dash as their early morning attack. Both of these attacks were gallantly led. “A” Company consolidated and held, in a most determined manner, the left flank of the German trenches, and handed them over intact to the Royal Scots Who relieved them at midnight.

 Among the casualties was the newly commissioned 2^ndLieutenant Coomber who was sent to Hospital on the 23 June suffering from ‘Concussion and deafness as a result of the shelling on the 16^th”

That was to be the end of Georges time in the trenches he embarked from Le Harve via Southampton and on ward to home at 2 Charlton Terrace, Inchicore Road, Dublin. Granted leave until he reported to 4^thBn Royal Irish Fusiliers at Belfast 10^thSeptember he was promoted to Lieutenant 12 May 1916. Placed on the home service list in March 1917 serving at Portabello Barracks, Dublin. He was seconded to the Ministry of Labour ATB in Dublin. Discharged December 1919 he was placed on the half pay list and retained his position in the Dublin Office, Placed on retired list April 1921, Honorary rank of Captain.

 In civilian life he was a major supporter of the Old Comrades Association and served as Secretary of the Dublin Branch for many years, in the 1930s he also took up employment as Superintendent of the Richmond Institute for the Instruction of the Industrious Blind in Sackville Street (now Upper Connell Street), Dublin; his wife was also employed as Matron. 

 Captain Coomber retired to Cork and passed away there on 10 November 1952.

[Andy Shaw]

Another one from that group Photo

Captain James William Dean - Royal Irish Fusiliers

James William Dean, born 1881 Chaleroi, Belgium, where his Father worked for Saxby and Farmers, Signal Fitters.  He Enlisted aged 17 after giving a false date of birth in May 1898, Service number 6182, previous service with Essex Militia 1897/98. Married Mollie Elsie Lilley, 7 July 1906.

Promotions:Lance Corporal January 1901, Corporal August 1902, Sergeant February 1905, Colour Sergeant March 1911, Company Sergeant Major October 1914, Regimental Quarter Master Sergeant November 1914. Commissioned, December 2^ndLieut. 1914 continued to serve with 2^ndBattalion, Lieutenant January 1916, Captain December 1917, and Appointed Temp. Major; Deputy Assistant Adjutant General, General Headquarters September 1919, Retired with the Rank of Captain May 1920; Address: Faugh A Ballagh, Sudbury, Suffolk

Service: Home - May 98 to December 1899; South Africa – December 1899 to January 1903, India – January 1903 to October 1914; France and Flanders - December 1914 to May 1920.

Awards:Queens South Africa – Cape Colony, Tugela Heights, Relief of Ladysmith, Transvaal; Kings South Africa – South Africa 1901/02; 1914/15 Star, British War and Victory Medals. Mentioned in Dispatches (LG 5 July 1919).

Caught in ‘Mufti’ 

After a long and unblemished career with the Regiment, Captain Dean was to be sent home from France in disgrace; In February 1920 he was seen dining in a hotel in Boulogne out of uniform (Mufti) when questioned by a senior officer he apologised and immediately went to change into uniform. But the matter didn’t end there, on further investigation he was found to have booked a hotel room in the company of a lady, the hotel register showed a booking for Major and Madame Dean, but the lady in question was not his wife. She was Miss Ethel Violet Madeline Graham, assistant administrator in the Queen Mary Auxiliary Corps, on obtaining a pass she had travelled from England to France to meet up with Major Dean. His file contains correspondence pleading a case for leniency after such a long career, but his fate was sealed; he was relived of his position and sent back to England, Retiring soon after with the rank of Captain. As for Ethel she was followed back from the hotel by an officer and identified when she boarded the boat home, her superiors where informed and she too was dismissed from the service at the end of February.

 Captain Dean worked as a Clerical Officer in the Civil Service and at the time of his death in January 1940 he was working for the War Savings Committee.

[Ivor Anderson]

Fantastic detail Andy, and great to see their medals! My maternal great Grandfather, Robert John Sproule 7398 is back left. He only joined the RIF in January 1902, missing service in the South Africa campaigns. He was a CQMS and training instructor with service battalions during WW1, but was drafted with the 7/8th battalion in August 1917 and wounded in the left leg in October 1917. 

On 4th October 1917 the 7/8th RIF moved into front line at Fontaine-les-Croisilles (near LUMP LANE trench) S.E. of Arras. On 5 Oct. 1917 ‘Gas shell attack on enemy at 7pm. Enemy retaliated with ‘many aerial darts on LUMP LANE and shelled the right company’s HQ with heavies’. His service record states that Robert John Sproule was wounded and evacuated on 5-10-17. Aged 40! He was then returned to training roles.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/277072-royal-irish-fusiliers-training-battalions-ww1/?tab=comments#comment-2851568

Edited 16 July , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Andy Shaw]

Hi Ivor, I may have another picture of him let me take look

[Andy Shaw]

[Andy Shaw]

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Andy. I think that may be this John Sproule, but great to get photos of him - thanks! 

 

Edited 16 July , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Andy Shaw]

Yes your right they are all John Sproule,  I'll keep looking

[Andy Shaw]

You may already have this, Extract from the Regimental Gazette July 1956

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Andy. I hadn't seen that. I knew he was in the OCA. He lost 3 brothers in WW1, one with 2nd RDF. His wedding photo from August 1911:

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Andy Shaw said:

Another one from that group Photo

Captain James William Dean - Royal Irish Fusiliers

James William Dean, born 1881 Chaleroi, Belgium, where his Father worked for Saxby and Farmers, Signal Fitters.  He Enlisted aged 17 after giving a false date of birth in May 1898, Service number 6182, previous service with Essex Militia 1897/98. Married Mollie Elsie Lilley, 7 July 1906.

Promotions:Lance Corporal January 1901, Corporal August 1902, Sergeant February 1905, Colour Sergeant March 1911, Company Sergeant Major October 1914, Regimental Quarter Master Sergeant November 1914. Commissioned, December 2^ndLieut. 1914 continued to serve with 2^ndBattalion, Lieutenant January 1916, Captain December 1917, and Appointed Temp. Major; Deputy Assistant Adjutant General, General Headquarters September 1919, Retired with the Rank of Captain May 1920; Address: Faugh A Ballagh, Sudbury, Suffolk

Service: Home - May 98 to December 1899; South Africa – December 1899 to January 1903, India – January 1903 to October 1914; France and Flanders - December 1914 to May 1920.

Awards:Queens South Africa – Cape Colony, Tugela Heights, Relief of Ladysmith, Transvaal; Kings South Africa – South Africa 1901/02; 1914/15 Star, British War and Victory Medals. Mentioned in Dispatches (LG 5 July 1919).

Caught in ‘Mufti’ 

After a long and unblemished career with the Regiment, Captain Dean was to be sent home from France in disgrace; In February 1920 he was seen dining in a hotel in Boulogne out of uniform (Mufti) when questioned by a senior officer he apologised and immediately went to change into uniform. But the matter didn’t end there, on further investigation he was found to have booked a hotel room in the company of a lady, the hotel register showed a booking for Major and Madame Dean, but the lady in question was not his wife. She was Miss Ethel Violet Madeline Graham, assistant administrator in the Queen Mary Auxiliary Corps, on obtaining a pass she had travelled from England to France to meet up with Major Dean. His file contains correspondence pleading a case for leniency after such a long career, but his fate was sealed; he was relived of his position and sent back to England, Retiring soon after with the rank of Captain. As for Ethel she was followed back from the hotel by an officer and identified when she boarded the boat home, her superiors where informed and she too was dismissed from the service at the end of February.

 Captain Dean worked as a Clerical Officer in the Civil Service and at the time of his death in January 1940 he was working for the War Savings Committee.

Such a typically British institutional attitude…

Edited 16 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

On 16/07/2021 at 10:52, Andy Shaw said:

You may already have this, Extract from the Regimental Gazette July 1956

Found this family cutting Andy (RD should be RJ): 

Edited 22 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Andy Shaw]

Ivor, thanks for posting this great picture of their reunion and even more poignant for me as I have John Connells medals in my collection.

[Jervis]

@Ivor Anderson just a quick aside. Are you aware of any book on the 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers in the Great War? 
 

Thanks

[Ivor Anderson]

I'm not aware of any specific history of the 2nd Bn. Jervis. There are 2 general histories of the regiment by Marcus Cunliffe and Henry Harris.

War diary partly here (1914-15): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353484

At the outbreak of war, the 2nd Bn. were based at Quetta India and joined 82nd Brigade, 27th Division in France during December 1914.
They moved with the Division to Salonika in early December 1915. They were transferred to 31st Brigade, 10th (Irish) Division in November 1916 and moved to Palestine in September 1917 until the end of the war.

My GGF trained RIF recruits in WW1 until he was sent to Belgium & France with 7/8th RIF in August 1917: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/277072-royal-irish-fusiliers-training-battalions-ww1/?tab=comments#comment-2851568

 

Edited 22 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

I'm not aware of any specific history of the 2nd Bn. Jervis. There are 2 general histories of the regiment by Marcus Cunliffe and Henry Harris.

War diary partly here (1914-15): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353484

At the outbreak of war, the 2nd Bn. were based at Quetta India and joined 82nd Brigade, 27th Division in France during December 1914.
They moved with the Division to Salonika in early December 1915. They were transferred to 31st Brigade, 10th (Irish) Division in November 1916 and moved to Palestine in September 1917 until the end of the war.

My GGF trained RIF recruits in WW1 until he was sent to Belgium & France with 7/8th RIF in August 1917: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/277072-royal-irish-fusiliers-training-battalions-ww1/?tab=comments#comment-2851568

 

 

Thank you for the book suggestions and information Ivor. Much appreciated. They are some brilliant photographs of your GGF posted too. 

My interest in the 2/RIF is through my GG Uncle Laurence Neville, 2734. Entered F&F in Feb 1915 and served through to 1919. I assume he was trained in 1914/1915 and may well have been under the instruction of CQMS Sproule!