WW1 Royal Navy Cap badge identification

[David K]

This photo is believed to be my great aunt's fiancee, Charles Arthur Freeman, who was an Engine Room Artificer killed in action on 14 May 1918 when HMS Phoenix was torpedoed in the Adriatic. Can anyone advise about the badge and uniform which might help confirm that this is indeed his photo? Thanks in advance for any information.

 

   

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I can't  see the photo I'm afraid. 

Michelle 

[RNCVR]

No photo visible for me either!

[David K]

Sorry - have uploaded again Hope you can see this time.

[horatio2]

23 minutes ago, David K said:

Can anyone advise about the badge and uniform which might help confirm that this is indeed his photo?

Until the image is viewable - If it shows he is wearing a badge or Good Conduct chevrons on the sleeves of his uniform it cannot be Freeman becaus ERAs did not wear them,

No badges/chevrons, so could be an ERA.

[RNCVR]

Agree with Horatio, he could be an ERA.  He is wearing the cap badge of a CPO ERA. This badge would have a purple felt backing behind the central anchor.

ERA's wore no sleeve Insignia or GCB's.  

Edited 8 July , 2021 by RNCVR
..

[David K]

Thanks for the information. I have some further questions. According to his naval record, he entered as an Acting ERA IV and progressed to ERA III. Would the ERA cap badge be the same?  Were both CPO rank? And was the badge the same irrespective of which ship served on? Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, David K said:

Thanks for the information. I have some further questions. According to his naval record, he entered as an Acting ERA IV and progressed to ERA III. Would the ERA cap badge be the same?  Were both CPO rank? And was the badge the same irrespective of which ship served on? Thanks.

Horatio2 and Bryan (RNCVR) are the experts, but according to the interesting information at the following link ERAs from 1st to 4th class (there was also a 5th class) were rated as CPO and all wore the class one uniform seen in your photo, with the same headdress badge: https://www.uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_ranks_enlisted_1.html

Caveat:  there may be some errors at the link, the experts mentioned above will be able to confirm or otherwise.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, David K said:

Thanks for the information. I have some further questions. According to his naval record, he entered as an Acting ERA IV and progressed to ERA III. Would the ERA cap badge be the same?  Were both CPO rank? And was the badge the same irrespective of which ship served on? Thanks.

 

ERA's wore same cap badge throughout their careers.

Yes there was a 5th class during late Victorian times. When he completed his apprenticeship he entered as an ERA5, (later Acting\ERA4) then progressed up the classes to Chief ERA1st class.

If you post his ADM188 Service record we can assist you in interpreting the various entries.

ERA's & EA's (Electrical Artificers) were the highest paid ratings in the RN pay scale. I can provide figures for you should you wish.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by RNCVR

[David K]

Thanks for the helpful replies. I attach his ADM188 service record and look forward to learning more. I understand from reading other threads on this forum that Pembroke II was the naval barracks at Chatham and that Vivid II was the Stokers and Artificers School at Devonport. After short postings on HMS St George and HMS Gibraltar, he seems to have spent most of his career on HMS Newcastle before joining HMS Phoenix. But does the fact that Phoenix is in brackets mean he was actually serving on HMS Woolwich and HMS Blenheim? But he was killed in action on 14 May 1918 aboard HMS Phoenix according to CWGC. Grateful for further insights on the entries on his record, in particular, the meaning of the list and no, badges and remarks columns.  Thanks       

[FROGSMILE]

@horatio2has great knowledge in this area and I'm sure he'll be along soon.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

The ships on the left (Woolwich, Attentive, Vivid, Blenheim) are the Depot\Accounting ships. The ship in ( ) Phoenix, is the actual ship he was serving on. Phoenix was a Destroyer of 1911.  Phoenix was sunk on 14 May 1918 by KuK (Austrian) Sub U-XXVII in the Adriatic sea.

Newcastle was a 2nd class Cruiser of 1909.

"On the outbreak of the First World War she was stationed in the Far East on the China and Pacific station, being involved in operations during the Shanghai Rebellion in 1913, that had arisen as a result of the Xinhai Revolution that had broken out two years earlier. When war broke out she bombarded Yap, prior to deploying to Valparaíso to search for the armed merchant raider Prinz Eitel Friedrich. In late January 1916, Newcastle captured the German ship Mazatlan, which was then operating as the American ship Edna.[1] In 1917 she was reassigned to the East Indies and in 1918 she was again moved to operate off South America."

Pembroke is\was the Base\Depot at Chatham.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

I have attached a photo of ERA's & Stokers paraded from their Depot\Base ship HMS Asia, taken around mid 1890's.

The first two ranks are ERA's, all the remaining ratings behind the ERA's are Stokers.

 

[horatio2]

45 minutes ago, David K said:

Pembroke II was the naval barracks at Chatham and that Vivid II was the Stokers and Artificers School at Devonport.

Not strictly correct. PEMBROKE II and VIVID II were sub-divisions (e.g. PEMBROKE I to VIII, VIVID I to V) of the Ship's Book and Pay Ledgers at Chatham and Devonport. Men drafted to barracks, perhaps awaiting a sea draft, and men on courses at various schools were borne on the books of the appropriate sub-division of the Chatham/Devonport Pay Office (although offices of sub-divisions were sometimes located elsewhere. Do not confuse rhe barracks or school with the Pay Office (which men would rarely visit,, if ever). Besides which, men in a school were accommodated in the barracks and VIVID II, for example, did not just handle stokers and artificers on courses.

45 minutes ago, David K said:

the meaning of the list and no, badges and remarks columns

List is of interest, number is not. Men of the ship's company were List 5. Men on List12 were serving in ships which were tenders to the base/depot ship (e.g. PHOENIX as described by RNCVR). Most other lists are supernumeraries of one sort or another, The Badges column shows that he was Granted (G) one Good Conduct Badge (GCB) on the date shown after three years service with VG Character (= Conduct),

Ignore the Remarks - not of interest.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by horatio2

[David K]

Thanks, all very informative. And what was Attentive II? And is the first entry in the remarks column dated Sept 1916 a cross-reference to the badges column? A badge after 5 years?    

[horatio2]

2 minutes ago, David K said:

what was Attentive II?

Base at Dover.

2 minutes ago, David K said:

is the first entry in the remarks column dated Sept 1916 a cross-reference to the badges column? A badge after 5 years?    

No, 1st GCB after three years as shown - 13 Aug 1914.

[FROGSMILE]

According to this website dedicated to wreck sites he was one of only two crew members to be lost: https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?438  As both men were engine room trades the supposition might be that they were both killed by the initial explosion of the torpedo amidships under the waterline.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

His time in NEWCASTLE is covered by her log books here:- http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-06-HMS_Newcastle.htm

[RNCVR]

 

Further to Frogsmile's post above - Chatham Naval Memorial.

https://www.wrecksite.eu/peopleView.aspx?30684

 

[horatio2]

Note that in the NEWCASTLE log ( and w.r.t. my earlier note about Ship's Books) she records paying off (= ending her commission) on 25 June 1916 at Esquimalt. The log also noted that the ship's company [including ERA FREEMAN] "...embarked on S.S. PRINCESS VICTORIA for passage home." Note also that while on passage from western Canada he was borne on the books of HMS PEMBROKE II at Chatham. as a List 15 supernumerary (for pasasge).

Thus, although at first glance one might assume from his record that he was at Chatham for nearly two months before joining WOOLWICH for PHOENIX, in fact he was probably in PRINCESS VICTORIA for at least a month of that time on a long passage home.

[RNCVR]

As an aside, there were a few RCN ratings serving on HMS Newcastle for the time she was in the Pacific & based at Esquimalt.

Here is an example of how RCN\RNCVR stars are uniquely named to the ship they served on ---

 

[David K]

Thanks so much. Fascinating. These log books for HMS Newcastle cover much of the period of Charles's service aboard. He brought back some presents from the Far East for his fiancee. which she kept all her life, (and are still in the family) and now we know where he visited. He certainly saw a lot of the world in his short life. Thanks again.  

[FROGSMILE]

She was quite small ship so the engine space would have been relatively cramped I think.  At least the poor fellow probably died instantly.

Edited 9 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[David K]

A huge thank you to all those who provided information, photos and links. It is much appreciated. I have learned so much about his career in the Royal Navy. Next time I visit Chatham I will pay my respects at his memorial. Thanks again.  

[RNCVR]

Pleased to have been able to have been able to assist you David.

Here is what ERA Freeman's cap badge would have looked like - the background behind the central anchor would have been purple coloured.

Best Wishes,

Bryan