Army Pensions for Regular Soldiers

[fremlin]

I appreciate that this post might be straying from the specific aims of the Forum, but there is a (loose) connection and I don't know of another forum with such expertise in the history of the armed forces, so please forgive me. 

My great grandfather was a regular soldier, starting as a boy with the Grenadier Guards in 1865, and transferring to the 97th Regiment in 1868. He retired from its successor - the Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment - as a Colour Sergeant on 12.10.1891 (I still have the inscribed watch presented to him by members of the Sergeants Mess).

He appears in documents such as the 1901 census as an "Army Pensioner". My question relates to the level of pension he would have received: would it have kept him and his family of 11 children from his discharge in 1891 to his early death in 1902 (aged only 48)? He died of tuberculosis, so may well have been unable to work for some time prior to his death, but I am a little surprised that he did not apparently work to supplement his pension. I am curious as to what sort of pension he would have received.

To conclude the story: his wife had already died a year earlier, so in 1902 there were 11 orphans, although the oldest was 22. Not surprisingly, the boys enlisted in the Army as soon as they could, and the girls went into service. Six boys served in the Great War, mostly with the Grenadiers (two of whom were killed at First Ypres). This begs a supplementary question: would the Army award any sort of gratuity to those dependants?

[MaureenE]

For someone who was discharged in 1891, I think the pension would be comparatively quite small, although I cannot quote amounts. There is a book The Victorian Army at Home  : The Recruitment and Terms and Conditions of the British Regular, 1859-1899 by AR Skelley  1977 which possibly may contain some relevant information.

For the First World War period the following book, available online, may have something about dependents.

 

War Pensions and Allowances by J. M. Hogge and T. H. Garside 1918 Archive.org

Maureen

[Terry_Reeves]

I don't have the Skelley book that Maureen has mentioned above but I do have another work of his , The Victorian Army at Home - Croon Helm Ltd, 1977.  Chapter 4 is entitled Rates of Pay, Pensions and prospects of post service employment. It is a detailed chapter which is worth reading.

TR

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

I don't have the Skelley book that Maureen has mentioned above but I do have another work of his , The Victorian Army at Home - Croon Helm Ltd, 1977.  Chapter 4 is entitled Rates of Pay, Pensions and prospects of post service employment. It is a detailed chapter which is worth reading.

TR

 

Same book I think Terry?  In her first paragraph.

Edited 8 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Same book I think Terry?

Ah yes, losing the plot Frogsmile - gulp!  It can be bought quite reasonably with a bit of searching around

TR

Edited 8 September , 2021 by Terry_Reeves

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Ah yes, losing the plot Frogsmile - gulp!  It can be bought quite reasonably with a bit of searching around

TR

I know the problem.  We’ll have to form a club and encourage our fellow afflicted to join us!  Yes it’s a good book, I agree. I find Shelley’s books excellent and also Spiers.

Edited 8 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I know the problem.  We’ll have to form a club and encourage our fellow afflicted to join us!  Yes it’s a good book, I agree. I find Shelley’s books excellent and also Spiers.

 

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I know the problem.  We’ll have to form a club and encourage our fellow afflicted to join us!  Yes it’s a good book, I agree. I find Shelley’s books excellent and also Spiers.

There would have to be a subscription fee of course.

TR

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Terry_Reeves said:

 

There would have to be a subscription fee of course.

TR

Yes, but just a moderate one because we’ll be well funded from the avalanche of eligible membership applications 

[Terry_Reeves]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, but just a moderate one because we’ll be well funded from the avalanche of eligible membership applications 

I can't possibly comment. 

[bif]

24 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

subscription fee

 

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

membership applications

I'd like to sign up first, please.  How much. ?   

[bif]

28 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

subscription fee

 

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

membership applications

I'd like to sign up first, please.  How much. ?   

PS

Lord bless the EDIT button

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, bif said:

 

I'd like to sign up first, please.  How much. ?   

PS

Lord bless the EDIT button

Two shillings and sixpence, halfpenny farthing, bif… 

Edited 8 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[bif]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Two shillings and sixpence, halfpenny farthing,

So, about $0.50, right ? 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, bif said:

So, about $0.50, right ? 

Yes, or close to two and a half bob, in plain English.

Or maybe two bob and a tanner in not so many words.

Edited 8 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[bif]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes

Sounds like I'll have to dig thru my pre-decimalization English coins ?  🤔

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, bif said:

Sounds like I'll have to dig thru my pre-decimalization English coins ?  🤔

Oi reckon you’m moight Bif 

[Raldal]

A check in the  National Archives wo117 file shows a Colour Sgt. RWK discharged in 1891 shows him receiving a pension of 30d

(2/6 or 12.5p) per day.

[Ron Clifton]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, or close to two and a half bob, in plain English.

Or maybe two bob and a tanner in not so many words.

Or, in even fewer words, half a crown.

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

Or, in even fewer words, half a crown.

Ron

Exactly Ron, I wondered how long it would take! 

[fremlin]

Thank you for the helpful comments and particularly to Raldal for signposting me to the relevant National Archive document which I have downloaded.

It's another piece in the jigsaw, and once again I am so grateful to the good people on this forum who share their expertise to help others

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/09/2021 at 12:20, fremlin said:

Thank you for the helpful comments and particularly to Raldal for signposting me to the relevant National Archive document which I have downloaded.

It's another piece in the jigsaw, and once again I am so grateful to the good people on this forum who share their expertise to help others

 

I apologise for the distraction of my whimsical comments earlier, it’s most unusual for me to indulge in it and I did not mean to make light of your inquiry.

Pensions were paid quarterly in advance and administered by the Royal Hospital Chelsea, which had in-pensioners on its premises (paid an allowance of pocket money only) and out-pensioners who lived privately and collected their pension in cash every quarter.

There were also two types of pension, a Disability Pension and. Permanent Military Pension.  Both required a minimum service of 14-years with the colours, but whereas the permanent pension was for illness, injury and infirmity caused directly by military service, the Disability Pension was for those afflicted not in the direct line of military duty, and usually paid out only for a set period of time before review.  The latter was both, organised, endorsed, and reviewed periodically by the “Commissioners” of the Royal Hospital Chelsea. 

 If there are any specific questions that you have I will consult with my copy of Skelley and answer if I possibly can.

Edited 12 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[fremlin]

I wasn't offended - we all need a bit of whimsy !

Thank you for the extra information on the pensions system. I remain perplexed and/or astonished that they managed to budget and survive on a limited quarterly pension.

I will try our helpful local library to borrow Skelley as it gets books for me for a very modest fee

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/09/2021 at 15:53, fremlin said:

Thank you for the extra information on the pensions system. I remain perplexed and/or astonished that they managed to budget and survive on a limited quarterly pension.

It was tough for them to do and one of the points that Skelley emphasises is that no attempt was made to improve a private’s pay beyond that of the lowest paid workers of the manual classes.  The pension paid was for the soldier himself according to his length of service and no consideration was made of his dependants.  It was a time largely forgotten now when every mouth that needed to be fed was encouraged to work from a very young age in order to make a contribution to the kitchen table.  Girls usually went into service or assisted mother with sewing or laundry and boys largely undertook manual labour or, if they were lucky, secured an apprenticeship.  Everyone who was able bodied had to pay in their share to the family budget once their age got into double digits.

Edited 12 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[bif]

On 10/09/2021 at 09:53, fremlin said:

I wasn't offended - we all need a bit of whimsy !

Frem,     I find your attitude to not only be tolerant but also quite refreshing.  When old sweats like Ron or Froggie digress and go "off topic", myself included, they will still come through for you and offer freely from the vast amount of knowledge they"ve acquired.  If you're with us long enough you'll probably catch the same "disease" !

Thanks for being a good sport and tolerating the silliness.              bif

[JMB1943]

This collegiality is EXACTLY what I like about the GWF!!!!!!!

Regards,

JMB