Royal Sussex Regiment automatically transferred to Machine Gun Corps

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

Were gloves part of standard kit issued at the time for his rank please as it is new to me though I have seen plenty of photos of officers with them.  Am just interested not trying to start a debate on what’s up the sleeve.  Thank you

When out of the line warrant officers (of both classes) often wore brown leather dog skin gloves (inferior to the cape leather worn by commissioned officers), but they were a private purchase item for WO2 albeit affordable.  It was seen as a mark of status.  As WO1 were authorised to dress in officer style uniform they usually obtained brown leather gloves as a matter of course.  Issued gloves for all ‘other ranks’ were of knitted worsted wool.

Edited 27 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Alisonmallen62]

Thank you Frogsmile I always learn from you and it crossed my mind that it could have been a mark of status.  

[David Cannon]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

In a war time army there is no standard period or requirement to pass exams. Time expired veterans who joined up again for the fight, and others who were enticed back for their experience by a one year short service enlistment could be made sergeants effectively from day 1. Among the wartime only service battalions that went overseas in late spring to late summer 1915 most of the sergeants were men who were new to the army and had less than 12 months service. So my personal belief would be that his promotion to Sergeant doesn't really help with length of service.

Um...I'm consistantly saying he joined up in 1915. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree 

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter.  I understand your points. I have no evidence to confirm exactly when he joined the Royal Sussex regiment other than estimated (by this I mean paperwork) although I have no issue in him joining in 1915, if it is aligned with what Peter stated. Is there anyway to confirm his service number in the RSR? I did read the note about service numbers versus regiment numbers, but from my military past we were all give numbers for obvious reasons, not least to identify someone in a large group.

Trying to find as much information as possible. really appreciate your notes and assistance! :-o)

On 25/10/2021 at 19:44, FROGSMILE said:

I was thinking it answered the basics of the compulsory transfer David, but I shouldn’t have used the word “most”.

If your subject’s service record has been lost in the Arnside Street fire then you won’t be able to get details beyond any recorded in medal rolls and their linked index cards, plus any pension records if he qualified.

In the photo you posted he is wearing the rank of warrant officer class II and so was probably the company sergeant major at the time the photo was taken.  I think it was 1919 that the RQMS was given a crown within Laurel wreath as his badge to replace the plain crown, so it depends when the photo was taken if that had been his final role.

At that time there were no “service numbers”, that was a later arrangement.  Instead numbers were issued in blocks to regiments (hence regimental numbers) and then chronologically given out to soldiers as they enlisted or joined on transfer.  If a soldier changed regiment he changed number.  There was also a widespread re numbering later in the war so a man often had several numbers recorded on his medal index card.

 

[David Cannon]

On 25/10/2021 at 23:17, ss002d6252 said:

He was with the MGC when he was demobilized. This can be seen by way of the Z reference, Z/MGC/5809.


https://www.fold3.com/image/700408542?terms=12262,cannon

Craig

 

[David Cannon]

Thank you so much Craig.

Well, I am still trying to figure out all the information and from above that is great to know, so from others in the group G/F Frank Cannon joined around 1915 to the Royal Sussex Regiment (where can I find his joining details?) and then transferred, by the powers that be, to the MGC.  I am still interested as to when and as a private he managed to reach Corporal, then Sergeant and WO in a relatively short period of time. There is a good note in the trail that identifies routes to Sergeant status, which I found fascinating but did laugh a the 'no exams' comment! :-o) 

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, David Cannon said:

I am still interested as to when and as a private he managed to reach Corporal, then Sergeant and WO

Needs must in war time. There was more chance for advancement and, if the Sgt or WO was removed by the Germans, someone had to step in (and up).

Craig

[David Cannon]

36 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Needs must in war time. There was more chance for advancement and, if the Sgt or WO was removed by the Germans, someone had to step in (and up).

Craig

Indeed Craig! No doubt it was a very tough time for all involved and those that stepped up and forward were certainly selected.  Interestingly, when looking at how many ranks the officers had, it really shows a real disconnect with the soldiers. 

 

[JMB1943]

2 hours ago, David Cannon said:

Thanks Peter.  I understand your points. I have no evidence to confirm exactly when he joined the Royal Sussex regiment other than estimated (by this I mean paperwork) although I have no issue in him joining in 1915, if it is aligned with what Peter stated. Is there anyway to confirm his service number in the RSR?

David,

The records of the Royal Sussex Regt are held at the West Sussex Records Office, (WSRO; Chichester?).

I have searched the on-line version of the Index of the Nominal Roll of the 2nd Battalion, but none of your 6 men are in this list.

It is very likely that the WSRO holds the rolls for the other battalions, and each of your 6 men presumably enlisted in the same battalion on the same (plus or minus 1) day.

Good Luck with your research!

Regards,

JMB

Edited 27 October , 2021 by JMB1943
typo

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Needs must in war time. There was more chance for advancement and, if the Sgt or WO was removed by the Germans, someone had to step in (and up).

Craig

It was an old toast in the messes of regular regiments — “to bloody war and accelerated promotion” — although it has to be said that was before the advent of industrialised warfare.

Edited 27 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, David Cannon said:

from others in the group G/F Frank Cannon joined around 1915 to the Royal Sussex Regiment (where can I find his joining details?)

I keep trying different ideas on this yesterday and coming up with a blank. The six men from the Royal Sussex Regiment gives us sample regimental numbers 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

First a little bit of background from Paul Nixon's Army Numbers website.

When Britain declared war on Germany in August 1914 and her infantry regiments expanded with the addition of new war-time “service” battalions, it was common for these new battalions (with the notable exception of the Pals-type battalions) to continue numbering men in the same series that had, up until then, been in use by the regular battalions. Not so The Royal Sussex Regiment. War-time service enlistments were given numbers from a new series beginning with 1 and prefixed with the letter G/, whilst men who, during the war years, continued to join up for regular terms of enlistment with the Royal Sussex Regiment, continued to be numbered from the original series (their numbers for the most part prefixed with L/.) The South Down battalions which were Pals-type battalions also had their own separate number series prefixed with SD/.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-1st-2nd.html

(The same webpage shows that for the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment 10276 joined on 3rd February 1914 and four digit 77xx numbers would have been issued end 1903 \ early 1904. With 12 year terms of enlistments that meant those men, unless they had been honourably \ dishonourably discharged, would have been liable for service when Britain joined the Great War).

Paul Dixons' piece means we can rule out him and the others being L/77xx.

As search of the Medal Index Cards records in the National Archive catalogue threw up no SD/77xx numbers or anywhere near that.

I therefore tried a service of surviving service records for men who FindMyPast have indexed as relating to 1915. Note that because of the way FMP have indexed their records that meant some of what they called service records were actually discharge records for men discharged in 1915. Similarly there may well be discharge records for men who enlisted in 1915 but FMP have indexed them under year of discharge. Equally frustrating is that the FMP search engine isn't particularly well disposed towards wild card searches in my experience. Maybe a more experienced hand will have better joy, or it can be done on Ancestry. Anyway I ended up with a couple of G/77xx serial numbers - but they didn't enlist until end July \ early August 1915. Paul Nixon found pretty much the same thing. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/royal-sussex-regiment-service.html

So if the Regular Army \ Kitcheners New Army Battalions can be ruled out, that only really leaves the Special Reserves and the Territorial Force Battalions.

Going back to Paul Nixons' website,

3rd Battalion. As Paul says -

"It is common to see the prefix LSR/ or L/SR/ on these numbers issued to Special Reservists of the Royal Sussex Regiment. My data for these men ends in late August 1914 at LSR/2300 but numbering certainly extended into the 2400s and the numbering story for this battalion does not end here.

In August 1914, a second army service number series for General Service Special Reserve recruits was set up, these numbers prefixed with GSSR/.

4 joined on 13th August 1914
224 joined on 1st September 1914
704 joined on 1st October 1914
921 joined on 6th November 1914

My data for this number series ends at GSSR/931 and I believe that both the series, and recruitment directly into the Special Reserve, were abandoned at around the same time." https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-3rd-special.html

4th Battalions. 5262 joined on 17th February 1917. (A new six digit system kicked in shortly afterwards for new and exisiting recruits in all the TF battalions).
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-4th-battalion.html

5th Battalions. 6015 joined on 28th September 1916.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-5th-cinque-ports.html

6th Battalions. 3194 joined on 13th December 1916
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-6th-cyclist.html

So by that point I was fair flummoxed.

The limited evidence points to a January \ February 1915 enlistment but there appears to be nothing in the service number ranges in use at the time to support that.

So this afternoons thought was to see if there was a G/ equivalent of 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

And if there is, I'm not finding them. But I am finding references in most cases to the next number above and below.

So, for example, there is no G/7705 & G/7706 but there are surviving service records for G/7707 James Skinner. He enlisted on the 6th August 1915. Reporting to the Depot at Maidstone on the 7th, he was posted to the 10th Battalion on the 10th August 1915. He subsequently revealed he was underage and was transferred to the training reserve in 1916. And there is a G/7704 Harry Twort who has a Medal Index Card. The card shows him only qualifying for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, so he too appears not to have served in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

Now there can be many, many reasons why there are gaps in the clerical records, so I'm only putting this forward as a consideration and it would require other information to have been recorded incorrectly.

Hope that makes sense,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

21 minutes ago, PRC said:

I keep trying different ideas on this yesterday and coming up with a blank. The six men from the Royal Sussex Regiment gives us sample regimental numbers 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

First a little bit of background from Paul Nixon's Army Numbers website.

When Britain declared war on Germany in August 1914 and her infantry regiments expanded with the addition of new war-time “service” battalions, it was common for these new battalions (with the notable exception of the Pals-type battalions) to continue numbering men in the same series that had, up until then, been in use by the regular battalions. Not so The Royal Sussex Regiment. War-time service enlistments were given numbers from a new series beginning with 1 and prefixed with the letter G/, whilst men who, during the war years, continued to join up for regular terms of enlistment with the Royal Sussex Regiment, continued to be numbered from the original series (their numbers for the most part prefixed with L/.) The South Down battalions which were Pals-type battalions also had their own separate number series prefixed with SD/.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-1st-2nd.html

(The same webpage shows that for the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment 10276 joined on 3rd February 1914 and four digit 77xx numbers would have been issued end 1903 \ early 1904. With 12 year terms of enlistments that meant those men, unless they had been honourably \ dishonourably discharged, would have been liable for service when Britain joined the Great War).

Paul Dixons' piece means we can rule out him and the others being L/77xx.

As search of the Medal Index Cards records in the National Archive catalogue threw up no SD/77xx numbers or anywhere near that.

I therefore tried a service of surviving service records for men who FindMyPast have indexed as relating to 1915. Note that because of the way FMP have indexed their records that meant some of what they called service records were actually discharge records for men discharged in 1915. Similarly there may well be discharge records for men who enlisted in 1915 but FMP have indexed them under year of discharge. Equally frustrating is that the FMP search engine isn't particularly well disposed towards wild card searches in my experience. Maybe a more experienced hand will have better joy, or it can be done on Ancestry. Anyway I ended up with a couple of G/77xx serial numbers - but they didn't enlist until end July \ early August 1915. Paul Nixon found pretty much the same thing. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/royal-sussex-regiment-service.html

So if the Regular Army \ Kitcheners New Army Battalions can be ruled out, that only really leaves the Special Reserves and the Territorial Force Battalions.

Going back to Paul Nixons' website,

3rd Battalion. As Paul says -

"It is common to see the prefix LSR/ or L/SR/ on these numbers issued to Special Reservists of the Royal Sussex Regiment. My data for these men ends in late August 1914 at LSR/2300 but numbering certainly extended into the 2400s and the numbering story for this battalion does not end here.

In August 1914, a second army service number series for General Service Special Reserve recruits was set up, these numbers prefixed with GSSR/.

4 joined on 13th August 1914
224 joined on 1st September 1914
704 joined on 1st October 1914
921 joined on 6th November 1914

My data for this number series ends at GSSR/931 and I believe that both the series, and recruitment directly into the Special Reserve, were abandoned at around the same time." https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-3rd-special.html

4th Battalions. 5262 joined on 17th February 1917. (A new six digit system kicked in shortly afterwards for new and exisiting recruits in all the TF battalions).
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-4th-battalion.html

5th Battalions. 6015 joined on 28th September 1916.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-5th-cinque-ports.html

6th Battalions. 3194 joined on 13th December 1916
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-6th-cyclist.html

So by that point I was fair flummoxed.

The limited evidence points to a January \ February 1915 enlistment but there appears to be nothing in the service number ranges in use at the time to support that.

So this afternoons thought was to see if there was a G/ equivalent of 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

And if there is, I'm not finding them. But I am finding references in most cases to the next number above and below.

So, for example, there is no G/7705 & G/7706 but there are surviving service records for G/7707 James Skinner. He enlisted on the 6th August 1915. Reporting to the Depot at Maidstone on the 7th, he was posted to the 10th Battalion on the 10th August 1915. He subsequently revealed he was underage and was transferred to the training reserve in 1916. And there is a G/7704 Harry Twort who has a Medal Index Card. The card shows him only qualifying for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, so he too appears not to have served in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

Now there can be many, many reasons why there are gaps in the clerical records, so I'm only putting this forward as a consideration and it would require other information to have been recorded incorrectly.

Hope that makes sense,
Peter

Any of the men in the MGC range die ? If so a check on the war gratuity should give us an idea of enlistment date to compare. I'll take a look if we have a suitable candidate (or two).

Craig

[PRC]

29 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Any of the men in the MGC range die ? If so a check on the war gratuity should give us an idea of enlistment date to compare. I'll take a look if we have a suitable candidate (or two).
 

For the puposes of this exercise, no such luck Craig.

Having said which the MGC number 12264 which would have fallen in the middle of the group of men transferred from the Royal Sussex Regiment does not have a candidate associated with it. And nor for that matter does MGC number 12261.

However with regard to 12261, 12260 was ex-Royal Fusiliers and 12262 was ex-Royal Sussex, so 12261 could have come from either.

Like Frank Cannon 12261 & 12264 could have remained home service. But they could also have been commissioned, or they could have been renumbered for some reason in the MGC or they could have been transferred. Period of initial training at Grantham would tie in I believe with the formation of the Heavy Branch of the MGC, the future Tanks Corps.

Cheers.
Peter

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

For the purposes of this exercise, no such luck Craig.

Just when you need someone who wasn't quite as quick at ducking.

It's an annoying little mystery.

Craig

[AndrewSid]

Excellent threat.  With regard to promotion My great uncle joined the MGC in Oct 1916 after enlisting in an unknown TF unit at Easter 1915.  He had no previous military experience.  He arrived at the MGC a private and was a Sgt in less than 18 months.    

[David Cannon]

On 27/10/2021 at 17:44, FROGSMILE said:

It was an old toast in the messes of regular regiments — “to bloody war and accelerated promotion” — although it has to be said that was before the advent of industrialised warfare.

Indeed, too many deaths in such a short time. Lest we forget their sacrifice.

On 27/10/2021 at 17:30, JMB1943 said:

David,

The records of the Royal Sussex Regt are held at the West Sussex Records Office, (WSRO; Chichester?).

I have searched the on-line version of the Index of the Nominal Roll of the 2nd Battalion, but none of your 6 men are in this list.

It is very likely that the WSRO holds the rolls for the other battalions, and each of your 6 men presumably enlisted in the same battalion on the same (plus or minus 1) day.

Good Luck with your research!

Regards,

JMB

Thank you JMB! Much appreciate your efforts. All the best David

[Kitty55]

On 25/10/2021 at 21:48, PRC said:

First stab at a nearby numbers search. (Went a bit overboard as this overlaps into one of my own projects

MGC 12258 George B. Bigley was 20796 Royal Fusiliers, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12259 Robert J Holdford  was 6387 Royal Fusiliers, first landed in France 1-9-15.

MGC 12260 Edward A Simmons was 9576 Royal Fusiliers, first landed in France 1-9-15.

MGC 12263 Thomas McDougall was 7857 Royal Sussex, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12265 Ernest Kennard was 7749 Royal Sussex, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12266 Sidney Alfred Mullins was 7705 Royal Sussex, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15. Medical admission register entry dated 22/08/18. He had been in the Army 3 years 6 months and had served 33 months in the field.

MGC 12267 James A Goad was 7731 Royal Sussex, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12268 Charles F. Calicott was 7706 Royal Sussex, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12269 Albert Chivers was 15103 Border Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12270 William R. Carman was 21153 Border Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12271 Ernest Roger Purple was 21111 Border Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War  after 31/12/15. Ernest was from East Dereham in Norfolk and had originally been 18129 in the Norfolk Regiment. He was killed in action on the 5th May 1916. I have very, very tentatively identified him as part of a large draft that went to the 10th Battalion, Border Regiment on the 9th November 1915 and were allocated numbers in the range 21085 – 23208. (Much more work needs to be done on that, so it’s not set in stone).

MGC 12272 Edward Powley was D/55504 & 393251 Dragoon Guards and subsequently 370558 Labour Corps. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12273 Stanley Riches was 21188 Border Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12274 Augustus Frederick Runacres was 21235 Border Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15. Augustus was from Diss in Norfolk and had originally been 19325 Norfolk Regiment. He was Killed in Action on the 3rd May 1917.

MGC 12275 George Rix was formerly 18376 Norfolk Regiment and 21233 Border Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12276 Alfred Walter Shalders was formerly 18012 Norfolk Regiment and 21238 Border Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15. He was from Yarmouth in Norfolk and appeared on a casualty list in the edition of the Norwich Mercury dated March 17th, 1917 as wounded. He would subsequently be killed in action on the 29th September 1917.

MGC 12277 Herbert L Skeet was was formerly 18059 Norfolk Regiment and 21202 Border Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12278 Raymond A. Reeve was formerly 19433 Norfolk Regiment and 21232 Border Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15. Surviving service records only relate to his pension claim for a knee injury suffered while on drill at Grantham late in 1918. B.103’s (Casualty Form Active Service) that have survived start from late summer 1916 when he was already in France with the MGC.

MGC 12279 Ernest R. Scott was formerly 18307 Norfolk Regiment and 21236 Border Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12280 Thomas Oliver was 81723 Cheshire Regiment. Medals weren’t issued until 1932 so not clear in which order and the Service Medal Roll reference quoted may not be unit specific. March 1918 Medical Admission record had him serving with 12 Battalion MGC but doesn’t reference length of service or time in the field.

MGC 12281 Albert Gower was 8043 Royal Sussex Regiment, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12282 Thomas Holland was 8041 King’s Shropshire Light Infantry, first landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15.

MGC 12283 Alfred Jones was North Staffordshire Regiment 10225 and 68116. First landed Gallipoli 13/07/15 with 7th Bn. 1915 Star issued by MGC, VM & BWM by North Staffs.

MGC 12284 John Callon was North Staffordshire Regiment 15595. First landed Gallipoli 13/07/15 with 7th Bn.

MGC 12285 – No MiC of service record match

MGC 12286 John W. Fenton also Lincolnshire Regiment 11152 & 51958 & 63667 and Leicestershire Regiment 16789. First landed Gallipoli 19-7-15. Looks like Medals may have been issued by the Lincolnshire Regiment. (A note across the top of the card also looks like it refers to the West Riding Regiment).

MGC 12287 Sydney Smith was 14436 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 7-7-15.

MGC 12288 Frank Hogg was 11107 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 7-7-15. KiA 16/07/16.

MGC 12289 Michael Narey was 14308 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 7-7-15 with the 8th Bn.

MGC 12290 Stanley R. Churcher was 15596 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 7-9-15(?) with the 8th Bn.

MGC 12291 Arnold Robertshaw was 12003 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 7-7-15 with the 8th Bn.

MGC 12292 Thomas Brown was 13290 West Riding Regiment. First landed Gallipoli 15-7-15 with the 9th Bn.

MGC 12293 Hubert Pearce was 12734 West Riding Regiment. First landed France 29-7-15.

MGC 12294 Harry Levine was 11766 West Riding Regiment. First landed France 26-8-15 with the 10th Bn. Medical Board papers from 1920 only.

MGC 12295 Alfred Weston was 3/16506 West Riding Regiment. medal entitlement split across two MiCs. First landed France 29-8-15. Medical Admission Register entry from December 1917 does not give length of service and time in field force.

MGC 12296 John Guerin was 2nd Bedfordshire Regiment 7989. First landed France 6-10-14.

MGC 12297 William Praed Jennings was 18633 Lincolnshire Regiment. First landed in a Theatre of War after 31/12/15. Surviving service records.

Images courtesy FindMyPast.

Some tentative inferences at this point.

• The Royal Sussex Regiment aren’t pre-war Regulars with four digit numbers. Alternative candidates exist for those. Sidney Mullins length of service from the Medical Register shouldn’t be taken as gospel, but would indicate the group enlisted about January to February 1915
• Likely they served in either a Territorial or Service Battalion which had a unit prefix in front of the four digit number.
• If I’m right that the ex Norfolk Regiment men transferred to the 10th Battalion, Border Regiment on the 9th November 1915, then that is the earliest they could have been moved on to the MGC. It would seem likely that unless the system was playing catch up, the Royal Sussex men were transferred to the MGC no more than a day of so earlier than the Border Regiment men. The extracts from the records for William Jennings makes it look more likely to have been February 1916.
• Sidney Mullins 33 months in the field by August 1918 would have him going overseas in April\ May 1916. Edward Roger Purple is KiA on the 5th May 1916. Paperwork for William Jennings also has him going overseas in April 1916.
• Working backwards through the service numbers may turn up an earlier date that will bracket the period Frank Cannon moved to the MGC – I’m just too "MGC’d" out to give it a go tonight.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Hi Peter -

RE: Ernest Roger PURPLE mentioned above as from East Dereham - he's actually from Longham a village about 5 miles north-west of town. I had wondered why I'd not got him in my listings of 2,546 soldiers either having been born or living in (East) Dereham. Hope you don't mind me mentioning it as you made me think I'd got yet another soldier I'd missed. I'm sure I'll find some more but he's not one of them.

I don't know if you remember me but I'm the nutter who's still ploughing through all the East Dereham soldiers who served in the Great War - almost got to the end of the C surnamed soldiers now - my only excuse is that over a quarter of the soldiers from town had a surname beginning with B.  I've also completely done (well I think I have) all those that were killed, died of wounds or have an injury record and am now working on all the others - and some are proving to be very elusive, to say the least, especially those on home service.

Yep I'll be back on here soon with more questions/queries for you all.

thanks and take care, Kitty

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Kitty55 said:

I don't know if you remember me but I'm the nutter who's still ploughing through all the East Dereham soldiers who served in the Great War - almost got to the end of the C surnamed soldiers now - my only excuse is that over a quarter of the soldiers from town had a surname beginning with B. 

How could I possibly forget you

Roger Purple's connection to East Dereham came from Soldier Died in the Great War which had him born Longham, and resident East Dereham. Suspect in the latter case it was probably a postal town as the Norfolk Roll of Honour 1914-18 has him on the memorial at Longham.

But it's not crystal clear. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales "Earnest" Roger Purple, 22, a farm labourer, born Longham, was recorded in the household of his widower father Henry, (60) at Longham. The death of Henry was recorded in the Mitford District in Q1 1925, aged 76. On the electoral register there is a Henry Purple right through to 1914, entitled to vote in parliamentary, county council and civil parish elections because he was the (male) householder of a dwelling house at Hoe Road, Longham. But Henry is not on the 1915 edition there or anywhere else in Norfolk as far as I can see. He could of course have been no longer a head of a household, or moved and didn't register in time, or many other potential scenarios.  Henry's not coming up on a high level search of the 1921 Census of England & Wales either.

Certainly looks like Roger would have had cause to move prior to the joining up, and possible even prior to the Great War. The gray area is whether that move took him into East Dereham or another nearby village where East Dereham might be the postal town.

Cheers,
Peter

[David Cannon]

On 25/10/2021 at 21:18, FROGSMILE said:

You should find his regimental numbers on the medal roll and index card to which I’ve referred.  If you managed to find birth certificates you will surely be able to find the medal records.  As well as the NA all the genealogical websites have copies.

Can you confirm the medal roll and index card please. His birth was 11th July 1887 - thank you so much!

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, David Cannon said:

Can you confirm the medal roll and index card please. His birth was 11th July 1887 - thank you so much!

Those aspects don’t fall in my purview I’m afraid,  but there are many here who will help.

[David Cannon]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Those aspects don’t fall in my purview I’m afraid,  but there are many here who will help.

Okay, Thanks.

[David Cannon]

On 27/10/2021 at 18:53, PRC said:

I keep trying different ideas on this yesterday and coming up with a blank. The six men from the Royal Sussex Regiment gives us sample regimental numbers 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

First a little bit of background from Paul Nixon's Army Numbers website.

When Britain declared war on Germany in August 1914 and her infantry regiments expanded with the addition of new war-time “service” battalions, it was common for these new battalions (with the notable exception of the Pals-type battalions) to continue numbering men in the same series that had, up until then, been in use by the regular battalions. Not so The Royal Sussex Regiment. War-time service enlistments were given numbers from a new series beginning with 1 and prefixed with the letter G/, whilst men who, during the war years, continued to join up for regular terms of enlistment with the Royal Sussex Regiment, continued to be numbered from the original series (their numbers for the most part prefixed with L/.) The South Down battalions which were Pals-type battalions also had their own separate number series prefixed with SD/.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-1st-2nd.html

(The same webpage shows that for the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment 10276 joined on 3rd February 1914 and four digit 77xx numbers would have been issued end 1903 \ early 1904. With 12 year terms of enlistments that meant those men, unless they had been honourably \ dishonourably discharged, would have been liable for service when Britain joined the Great War).

Paul Dixons' piece means we can rule out him and the others being L/77xx.

As search of the Medal Index Cards records in the National Archive catalogue threw up no SD/77xx numbers or anywhere near that.

I therefore tried a service of surviving service records for men who FindMyPast have indexed as relating to 1915. Note that because of the way FMP have indexed their records that meant some of what they called service records were actually discharge records for men discharged in 1915. Similarly there may well be discharge records for men who enlisted in 1915 but FMP have indexed them under year of discharge. Equally frustrating is that the FMP search engine isn't particularly well disposed towards wild card searches in my experience. Maybe a more experienced hand will have better joy, or it can be done on Ancestry. Anyway I ended up with a couple of G/77xx serial numbers - but they didn't enlist until end July \ early August 1915. Paul Nixon found pretty much the same thing. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/royal-sussex-regiment-service.html

So if the Regular Army \ Kitcheners New Army Battalions can be ruled out, that only really leaves the Special Reserves and the Territorial Force Battalions.

Going back to Paul Nixons' website,

3rd Battalion. As Paul says -

"It is common to see the prefix LSR/ or L/SR/ on these numbers issued to Special Reservists of the Royal Sussex Regiment. My data for these men ends in late August 1914 at LSR/2300 but numbering certainly extended into the 2400s and the numbering story for this battalion does not end here.

In August 1914, a second army service number series for General Service Special Reserve recruits was set up, these numbers prefixed with GSSR/.

4 joined on 13th August 1914
224 joined on 1st September 1914
704 joined on 1st October 1914
921 joined on 6th November 1914

My data for this number series ends at GSSR/931 and I believe that both the series, and recruitment directly into the Special Reserve, were abandoned at around the same time." https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-3rd-special.html

4th Battalions. 5262 joined on 17th February 1917. (A new six digit system kicked in shortly afterwards for new and exisiting recruits in all the TF battalions).
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-4th-battalion.html

5th Battalions. 6015 joined on 28th September 1916.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-5th-cinque-ports.html

6th Battalions. 3194 joined on 13th December 1916
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-6th-cyclist.html

So by that point I was fair flummoxed.

The limited evidence points to a January \ February 1915 enlistment but there appears to be nothing in the service number ranges in use at the time to support that.

So this afternoons thought was to see if there was a G/ equivalent of 7857, 7749, 7705, 7731 and 7706.

And if there is, I'm not finding them. But I am finding references in most cases to the next number above and below.

So, for example, there is no G/7705 & G/7706 but there are surviving service records for G/7707 James Skinner. He enlisted on the 6th August 1915. Reporting to the Depot at Maidstone on the 7th, he was posted to the 10th Battalion on the 10th August 1915. He subsequently revealed he was underage and was transferred to the training reserve in 1916. And there is a G/7704 Harry Twort who has a Medal Index Card. The card shows him only qualifying for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, so he too appears not to have served in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

Now there can be many, many reasons why there are gaps in the clerical records, so I'm only putting this forward as a consideration and it would require other information to have been recorded incorrectly.

Hope that makes sense,
Peter

 

[David Cannon]

Hello Peter! Did I send you this? This gives his number for the MGC as 12262. Also, there is a reference to Royal Sussex. Is this of any help in you searches? All the very best David

 

[JMB1943]

The pension card (posted above) appears to show a possible third regimental number (SFH 14057) that has been lined through.

Instructions for Armourers only gives SF = Royal Scots Fusiliers as the closest match, so I may be mistaken, but it does need to be explained.

Regards,

JMB

 

[David Cannon]

2 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

The pension card (posted above) appears to show a possible third regimental number (SFH 14057) that has been lined through.

Instructions for Armourers only gives SF = Royal Scots Fusiliers as the closest match, so I may be mistaken, but it does need to be explained.

Regards,

JMB

 

Thank you JMB - no ideas about this one I'm afraid. He was born, bred and died in Brighton, Sussex - so no connection ti the Royal Scots that I'm aware of....

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, JMB1943 said:

The pension card (posted above) appears to show a possible third regimental number (SFH 14057) that has been lined through.

That's a pension reference number, rather than a regimental number.

Craig