Pte John Chamberlain Norfolk Regiment 18165, died on HMHS Gascon 25 May 1916

[Richard Crome]

Whilst doing research on my family, I have hit a wall over the naming of a John Chamberlain/Chamberlin.  Everything I have from the family and online refers to him as Chamberlin in Census, Births, Deaths and Marriages.  But when researching the Military records, I can only find Chamberlain.  However the facts there support my relation known as Chamberlin!

Has anybody any ideas how I can prove that his name was incorrectly entered on joining and was written Chamberlain on military records?

[charlie962]

58 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

Has anybody any ideas how I can prove that his name was incorrectly entered on joining and was written Chamberlain on military records?

Welcome to the Forum Richard.

His pension record names his pension beneficiary. Courtesy WesternFront Assoc with Fold3. If the address fits your family, I suggest that closes the loop?

Charlie

[Richard Crome]

Hi Charlie,  thanks for the assistance.

The name Lottie & address indeed fit.  I have this pm managed to find a similar record dated 1929 with his name spelt Chamberlin!  By the his wife had remarried and she must have had it corrected.  Also, I found another Effects record, which shows a correction from "Chamberlain" to "Chamberlin".  All the other facts Regt, Number, date of death etc match but his name had been altered.

So confusing.  Thanks again

 

Richard

 

[charlie962]

Just now, Richard Crome said:

So confusing.

but not unusual.

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

Also, I found another Effects record, which shows a correction from "Chamberlain" to "Chamberlin".

The problem here is that there's no such thing as a 'legal' name so spellings often change, either intentionally or accidentally.

You would really need to find what the CWGC policy is and whether or not they'd take a birth certificate as evidence of the spelling.

Craig

[Richard Crome]

Hi Craig,

I've written to the Norfolk Regiment Museum to see if they can prove one way or the other if it was simply entered incorrectly on entry.  The fact today I've found 2 documents issued post his death that are correct, confirms that belief.

Richard

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

Hi Craig,

I've written to the Norfolk Regiment Museum to see if they can prove one way or the other if it was simply entered incorrectly on entry.  The fact today I've found 2 documents issued post his death that are correct, confirms that belief.

Richard

I'm not sure how you would every say it was entered incorrectly. Unless you were present you'd never know whether the clerk wrote it down as he heard it or whether the man spelt it out to him and chose that spelling.

Craig

[PRC]

52 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

I've written to the Norfolk Regiment Museum to see if they can prove one way or the other if it was simply entered incorrectly on entry.  

The Regimental Museum doesn't hold service records and I'm not sure their muster roll  \ enlistment book covers the period when John would have joined up. They have been working on transcribing and putting online a "sick list" book which covers both ill-health and accident as well as the more normal combat casualties. Even then the name may have been written how the clerk in the relevant medical facility thought it should be spelt, or it could have been "corrected" on reaching base records.

Chamberlain would have been the spelling passed on to the Imperial War Graves Commission, (predecessor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission), by the Army in the early twenties. This appears to be consistant with all the other sources - his MiC shows his service medals were issued in the name Chamberlain and there is nothing on the Medal Index Card to show they were returned for amending to the "correct" spelling.

As his name is on a memorial it may be that the CWGC do have correspondence with the family confirming the name spelling he was to be remembered by. I've recently tried getting a name amended on CWGC for a Canadian flyer - with every single record, both civil and military showing his name spelt the same way - but different to what was on CWGC. The response I got back was that the CWGC spelling was how the family asked for him to be remembered and in such "disputes" the families wishes were paramount. Thats regardless of the fact that anyone starting from either the civil or military sources would not find him on CWGC and like me start thinking he was a missed commemoration. In that particular case they wouldn't even take the option of showing (family requested name) but served as (military records name).

The address of 115 Wateloo Road, Norwich is within a stone throw of Christchurch, New Catton, and so I've assumed for a long time that the John Chamberlain on the War Memorial there was the John Chamberlin from the civil records and just put it down to different times when consistancy in name spelling \ date of birth weren't an everyday necessity.

These sorts of memorials where local enterprises with both funds and names sought from members of the parish. It would be a miracle if the original paperwork of the local committee that oversaw this has still survived. As an aside however, I do wonder at the unveiling of these memorials how often there was a sharp intake of breath as errors were revealed to the congregation !

Not seeing any references to him in the local newspapers of the period I've transcribed so far and Picture Norfolk doesn't have a picture of him under either surname spelling.

As for the change from Chamberlain to Chamberlin in the Register of Soldiers effects, pure speculation but I suspect his widow was having problems cashing either her pension or the war gratuity payment and this is what brought the issue to light, as the medals, (and no doubt the death penny and the kings certifcate as well), plus the war memorial don't appear to have led to urge to correct the spelling - or at least not one where there is any documented evidence.

I think you probably have enough evidence now to show the man in the civil records and man in the military records are one and the same. So I'd suggest contacting CWGC to see if they are amenable to showing him as CHAMBERLIN (served as CHAMBERLAIN) as a reasonable compromise. The push back will come if the family \ widow confirmed the Chamberlain spelling.

Good luck,
Peter

 

 

Edited 11 November , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[charlie962]

This 1916 obituary for him has him as Chamberlin- clearly how he was known locally.

Courtesy FindmyPast:

Edited 11 November , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

His wounding on 22/4/1916 would have been as part of that final (but unsuccessfull) attempt by the Relief Force to get through to the beleaguered Garrison at Kut. It was the Battle of Sannaiyat. Half his Battalion were inside Kut and the other half (including Chamberlin) were with the Relief Force. This would probably have made them fight even harder.. The Garrison were forced to surrender on 29/4/18.

 

Charlie

Edit- The remaining half of the 2 Bn of Norfolks were combined with a half of the 2 Bn of Dorsets to form the "Norsets", until proper replacements could be found for each unit.

The War Diary for that Composite Battalion is here at National Archives and free to download if you register.

Edited 11 November , 2021 by charlie962

[Richard Crome]

Wow!  That is amazing information, I'm so grateful :-)

The paper article is particularly warming and can't thank you enough for finding that.  I'd not heard of Find my Past, but will be using them in the future!

Regards

Richard

[charlie962]

13 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

 I'd not heard of Find my Past, but will be using them in the future

Try them out now. Free Military records this Remembrance weekend.

 

14 minutes ago, Richard Crome said:

The paper article is particularly warming

Yes, and very helpful in nailing down the action that cost him his life 5 weeks later.

[PRC]

I'm not aware of any surviving service records for John, but if it's any help I have the following enlistment dates for the range 18065 to 18265, with the source.

18091 Claude Russell 14/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18103 Walter Bowles  16/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18109 Edward Arthur Gooch 16/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18155 Ernest A Clarke 14/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18161 George Barker 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18171 Robert Henry Farrow 18/01/1915 (Service Record)
18206 Robert Watling 18/01/1915 (Service Record)
18216 Bertie Eli Utting 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18223 George Robert Bailey 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18235 James Richard Canham 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18258 Michael Timm 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)
18261 Henry Wicks 18/01/1915 (SWB Roll)

The regimental numbers would have been issued when they reported to the Depot, so I suspect Ernest Clarke was allowed a couple of days to sort his affairs out after enlisting before reporting to the Depot at Britannia Barracks in Norwich.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter