allankelly Posted 1 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2021 37 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: This would go nicely with it! So is that the type of rifle that this bayonet would be used with? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 December , 2021 Share Posted 1 December , 2021 Yes Allan, it is the Magazine Lee-Enfield commonly known as the MLE. Chambered in the. 303 service round of the British Army in WW1 it was the fore-runner of the well known SMLE rifle. Your bayonet would have attached to that rifle snugly with a nice little click as it locked on.! I also have one of these rifles of the 1901 vintage to which it would match nicely.! Some more pictures posted below ... Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 2 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2021 On 30/11/2021 at 12:26, allankelly said: Hello - first post here, and don’t know anything about WW1 arms but I’m looking for advice or help please. I rescued this bayonet (images attached) from going to the dump about 50 years ago. My 2 young boys are fascinated by it and it’s finally made me take a closer look at it and try to find out more about it. Could someone on here kindly help with advice on how to find out more about it or tell me more about it please? Thank you. Hello, My (retired policeman) neighbour (who has his own small collection of weapons!) pointed out that there are also some numbers on the side of the blade at the ‘root’ - see attached photo. They are ‘95’ under a small crown and ‘85’ below that with what could be ‘3’ under it. Are these of any significance/interest? Also, going back to my original photos, one side of the blade has ‘EFD’ (which I presume means ‘Enfield’) and in a vertical line below it there is a crown, 9 and E. Can anybody on here tell me what these signify please? Thanks everybody for all the information and comments so far. 15 hours ago, shippingsteel said: Yes Allan, it is the Magazine Lee-Enfield commonly known as the MLE. Chambered in the. 303 service round of the British Army in WW1 it was the fore-runner of the well known SMLE rifle. Your bayonet would have attached to that rifle snugly with a nice little click as it locked on.! I also have one of these rifles of the 1901 vintage to which it would match nicely.! Some more pictures posted below ... Cheers, SS Thank you SS - this is all really interesting to find out after having had this for about 50 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 2 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2021 On 30/11/2021 at 14:34, MikeyH said: Alan, You may find some faint markings on the rear of the scabbard, this will indicate the scabbard maker also you should find a date. If EFD and 01, it is likely original to the bayonet. (frequently these marks have been erased by time and handling). Yes, you are correct re the dating stamp, it is normal to find examples dated after the death of Queen Victori still carrying VR, October 1901 is the date of manufactiure. Mike. Hello Mike, I’ve found some small, very feint markings on the scabbard metal below the belt fixing ‘knob’ (sorry for my lack of knowledge!) I’ve attached a poor photo of them - they seem to be, in a column, a crown, B, 54. Does this tell me anything please? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 December , 2021 Share Posted 2 December , 2021 24 minutes ago, allankelly said: They are ‘95’ under a small crown and ‘85’ below that with what could be ‘3’ under it. Are these of any significance/interest? Also, going back to my original photos, one side of the blade has ‘EFD’ (which I presume means ‘Enfield’) and in a vertical line below it there is a crown, 9 and E. Can anybody on here tell me what these signify please? Thanks everybody for all the information and comments so far. EFD is indeed Enfield - officially known as the Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF). The other marks are inspector's marks, the crown indicating inspection by an official of the RSAF, the number being his own personal identifier - there does not seem to be a surviving list of who these people were and their numbers. The marks on the ricasso are those applied by the inspector when the bayonet was 'finished' and had passed inspection, and so was ready for issue. The '3' under the ricasso mark is actually an 'E'', signifying the inspector was based at Enfield lock. The marks on the blade back, are for another inspector, no. 85, who checked the blade after it had been hardened, and the our no, 95 again who checked it after it was polished, so these come in sequence before the ricasso mark. The 95 mark has an 'E' under it, as with the ricasso mark, the 85 mark had the same but is blurred. Note also the 'V' on he tang below the crossguard/crosspiece: many P.1888 bayonets have alphabetical letters here, but it is not clear what they mean or when they were aplied. They are probably marks applied by individual workers at different stages in the process of making the bayonet, but are not official amrks of the type with the crown above them. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 December , 2021 Share Posted 2 December , 2021 2 minutes ago, allankelly said: Hello Mike, I’ve found some small, very feint markings on the scabbard metal below the belt fixing ‘knob’ (sorry for my lack of knowledge!) I’ve attached a poor photo of them - they seem to be, in a column, a crown, B, 54. Does this tell me anything please? Thanks. This is a Birmingham made and inspected locket (to give it its proper name!), hence the 'B'. by inspecor no. 54, and so is not original to the bayonet. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 2 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2021 4 minutes ago, trajan said: This is a Birmingham made and inspected locket (to give it its proper name!), hence the 'B'. by inspecor no. 54, and so is not original to the bayonet. Julian Thank you Julian. This is good to know although a wee bit disappointing. Is it still the correct type of scabbard for this bayonet though? Also, you say the scabbard was made and inspected in Birmingham so presumably this was by a manufacturer other than Enfield who I presume were based in Enfield (which, despite being from north of the border, I know is not in Birmingham!) Thanks again and for taking the time to respond so fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 December , 2021 Share Posted 2 December , 2021 Glad to help! To be honest I don't know where this scabbard was assembled and when it was attached to the bayonet - all I know is that the locket was inspected in Birmingham. However, all scabbards were marked to the left side of the seam on the back of the scabbard and will indicate where inspected and when - see if there is anything there. I do know from my own collection that Enfield inspected scabbard leathers certainly as late as 1903 for the P.1903 What I am uncertain about is who made and inspected the metal fittings on scabbards, such as the locket, but my gut-feeling is that this was done at Enfield also. Problem is that these marks don't often survive and if they do are barely legible... But do check! According to Wikki, by the way, RSAF took over a weapons factory at Birmingham Sparbrook in 1887 and 'repair operations' were carried out there - but it says nothing about the making of metal parts. Perhaps my old sparring partner SS can comment?! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 December , 2021 Share Posted 2 December , 2021 I don't know about bayonets but Sparkbrook certainly produced complete rifles so obviously had metal manufacturing capabilities.. On rifles at least the Sparkbrook inspection stamp was an italic B rather than the standard capital B for Birmingham, and other parts were also stamped SK I believe My recollection was that BSA took over Sparkbrook later also but I am not sure when, (I believe there are very scarce MLEs dating from 1905/6 which are actually marked BSA SPARKBROOK - unfortunately I do not have one!) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 December , 2021 Share Posted 2 December , 2021 The scabbard could still be the original one paired to this bayonet, despite having the Birmingham inspection mark on the locket. While RSAF Enfield did produce their own scabbards, outside contractors were also utilised during that period to make up for any shortfalls in production. One of the principal contractors for these scabbards was A. Cooper of Birmingham and the letters AC are commonly seen stamped into the leathers down the left of the seam. All of these scabbards would have received the B for Birmingham inspection mark as seen on this example. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 December , 2021 Share Posted 3 December , 2021 Thanks SS. All my bayonets are in storage as we needed 'my' study as a bedroom for our younger son - university flats are small! But I'll have a look-see if I can find my P.1888's and check with these. I know of the 'A.C.' mark but I think only for P.1907 scabbards... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 December , 2021 Share Posted 3 December , 2021 Interesting... Well, "You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles"! Another forum (http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?72374-Looking-for-Maker-of-british-WW1-bayonett-scabbards-mark-AC&s=) provides the information from The Collector and Researcher's Guide to the Great War, by Howard Williamson (Vol 2, p.191), that A.C. on P.1907 scabbards was for A. Cooper, 91 Aston Street, Birmingham. No leather maker of that name is listed in Peck's Trades Directory of Birmingham, 1896-97, which is all that I have been able to accessclose to 1901... BUT in 1849, according to the HISTORY AND GENERAL DIRECTORY OF THE BOROUGH OF BIRMINGHAM... there was a John Palmer, "currier, sword and bayonet leather scabbard" maker at that same address, 91, Aston street. Anyone have access to the census records for 1901? It would be nice to get confirmation that there was an A.Cooper scabbard maker at that address... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 On 02/12/2021 at 14:16, 4thGordons said: I don't know about bayonets but Sparkbrook certainly produced complete rifles so obviously had metal manufacturing capabilities.. On rifles at least the Sparkbrook inspection stamp was an italic B rather than the standard capital B for Birmingham, and other parts were also stamped SK I believe My recollection was that BSA took over Sparkbrook later also but I am not sure when, (I believe there are very scarce MLEs dating from 1905/6 which are actually marked BSA SPARKBROOK - unfortunately I do not have one!) Chris Thanks for commenting Chris - very interesting, and all helps build the background and full picture. Presumably the rare BSA Sparkbrook MLEs are also expensive?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 On 02/12/2021 at 22:07, shippingsteel said: The scabbard could still be the original one paired to this bayonet, despite having the Birmingham inspection mark on the locket. While RSAF Enfield did produce their own scabbards, outside contractors were also utilised during that period to make up for any shortfalls in production. One of the principal contractors for these scabbards was A. Cooper of Birmingham and the letters AC are commonly seen stamped into the leathers down the left of the seam. All of these scabbards would have received the B for Birmingham inspection mark as seen on this example. Cheers, SS Thanks again SS - and so the hunt’s back on as I didn’t realise the letters would be on the leather rather than the metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 17 hours ago, trajan said: Interesting... Well, "You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles"! Another forum (http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?72374-Looking-for-Maker-of-british-WW1-bayonett-scabbards-mark-AC&s=) provides the information from The Collector and Researcher's Guide to the Great War, by Howard Williamson (Vol 2, p.191), that A.C. on P.1907 scabbards was for A. Cooper, 91 Aston Street, Birmingham. No leather maker of that name is listed in Peck's Trades Directory of Birmingham, 1896-97, which is all that I have been able to accessclose to 1901... BUT in 1849, according to the HISTORY AND GENERAL DIRECTORY OF THE BOROUGH OF BIRMINGHAM... there was a John Palmer, "currier, sword and bayonet leather scabbard" maker at that same address, 91, Aston street. Anyone have access to the census records for 1901? It would be nice to get confirmation that there was an A.Cooper scabbard maker at that address... Julian Thanks Julian. You guys are keen and thorough. I didn’t realise that my original post would trigger so much interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 4 December , 2021 Share Posted 4 December , 2021 Thorough?? Wait until you see our bill at the end of the year…… Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 49 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Thorough?? Wait until you see our bill at the end of the year…… Regards, JMB 😳 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 December , 2021 Share Posted 4 December , 2021 Me too - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, trajan said: Me too - This is getting worrying now! I have an old war bayonet would that cover it?! 😳😂 Edited 4 December , 2021 by allankelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 December , 2021 Share Posted 4 December , 2021 Ignore it all - most are simply jealous of a nice bayonet you have there, and one with a history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allankelly Posted 4 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2021 Hello again. I think I’ve found some feint markings on the right hand (looking towards the tip) of the scabbard seam, about 4-5cm from the end of the metal closest to the handle. I think they show 95 or possibly 93. The first photo shows the location and the second is as clear a photo as I can get of the figures. Is this typically where they should be (which seems quite a random location)? There may also be some letters/figures at the location shown in the third photo but I can’t make them out (my best view is that there might be an E and a 5) or get a decent photo of them as the leather’s badly scuffed and cracked. You’ll see there is also what looks like a small gouge out of the edge of the metal so this area may have been damaged. I’ll try to find some better kit to inspect and photograph these areas. Thanks everybody for your continued interest and help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 December , 2021 Share Posted 5 December , 2021 That's the place! To tell the truth I have never studied these marks in any detail... SS might have done. I can't quite work yours out, but an example I have to hand reads from the top (at the end of the locket): crown / EFD / [small] E / '03', so this is an Enfield inspected scabbard for a P.1903 bayonet. although when bought it contained (and still does!) a P.1888. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMcNay Posted 10 December , 2021 Share Posted 10 December , 2021 (edited) Just caught sight of this thread, thought I'd chip in with some photos of two of the same bayonet I have. These belonged to my father in law - not sure here he picked them up from. He did National Service in the RAF, but his father was in the Highland Light Infantry, and was a POW in 1918. Unfortunately one of the bayonets has suffered from the lack of a scabbard, and is somewhat more tarnished than the other one. Would I be right in saying these date from 1897 and 1902? Edited 10 December , 2021 by DMcNay additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 December , 2021 Share Posted 10 December , 2021 Yes the older bayonet is a P1888 Mk.I (2nd type) made by Enfield in 1897. The other example is a P1888 Mk.II made by Sanderson in 1902, with an interesting wartime reissue stamp of 1915. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 December , 2021 Share Posted 10 December , 2021 And both are very nice! Any markings on the scabbard? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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