Cologne Southern Cemetery / Royal Fusiliers

[Engineer678]

Hi all, 

I’ve been researching a soldier Private John Robert 63341 23rd Bn Royal Fusiliers who died after armistice on the 12 August 1919 recorded  at the Cologne Southern Cemetery. His mic mentions he drowned. The cemetery mentions 6 died after armistice by drowning and their bodies were never recovered. 

 

I haven't been able to find anything else about what happened to the six soldiers on how they ended up drowning anyone out there know anymore I would be interested in finding out. 

 

Kind regards Luke 

 

 

[JWK]

The British Army on the Rhine had its own newspaper: the Cologne Post.

They must have reported it.

You can read it on-line here:  https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbbn/periodical/titleinfo/3788582

[charlie2]

There is no mention of him drowning in the battalion war diary for August.

Charlie

[johntanner]

Luke

You probably have all this but he’s on the roll of honour of St Andrews, Enfield.

 

JOHN ROBERT DOMMETT

 

Private, 63341, 23rd Bn. Royal Fusiliers, 

(Formerly 3205 1st London Regt.)

Service record not traced. 

Son of Robert and Edith Dommett, of 29, Essex Rd., Enfield, Middlesex. In 1911 Census at 18 Fotheringham Road.

Confirmed at St Andrews 5 March. 1913

Enlisted December 1914. Served on Malta and at Gallipoli from 30 August 1915 to 23 October 1915. Served in France and Flanders with 20th Bn. Royal Fusiliers from 11 July 1916 to February 1918, when disbanded. Then posted to 23rd Bn.. Drowned 12 August 1919, while serving with 1st Rhine Brigade of British Army of the Rhine.. Age 21. Buried IV. C. 10. COLOGNE SOUTHERN CEMETERY

 

[Engineer678]

12 hours ago, JWK said:

The British Army on the Rhine had its own newspaper: the Cologne Post.

They must have reported it.

You can read it on-line here:  https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbbn/periodical/titleinfo/3788582

Thank you for your information on the the Cologne Post newspaper, I’ve had a good look through the newspapers unfortunately I didn’t find any articles relating to the drowning of soldiers,  the newspapers dates 13-16 1919 are missing from the archives which is a shame. Kind regards Luke 

[FROGSMILE]

If six/seven died in one incident it suggests perhaps a boat accident on the very fast flowing Rhine.  It was in the summer month of August, so I suppose swimming in hot weather isn’t impossible, although less likely for so many to die in a single incident.  All mere speculation of course.  It’s certainly most intriguing and I hope you do manage to learn more.

Edited 21 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

Pte Dommett was the only person to die on the 12th August who is buried in Cologne Southern Cemetery. There isn‘t a mention of his death in the Divisional or Brigade War Diaries either, which seems rather odd. One would expect the death of a soldier to at least appear in one of the diaries, it wasn‘t an everyday occurrence in 1919. Pte Bolton, also 23/RF, who died at the end of the month isn’t mentioned either. I would have thought their deaths would have warranted an inquiry.  Strange.

Charlie

[MaureenE]

The cemetery information doesn't specifically say they all died in the same accident. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/34600/cologne-southern-cemetery/ 

It is possible they  died separately in swimming or boating  or other accidents,  (or perhaps even suicide) when possibly the deaths are less likely to be reported in newspapers.

In India in the 1930s there was even a death by drowning when an Armoured Car broke down on a bridge over a flooded river, and one of the men sent to help recover it drowned. I don't know if this sort of accident could happen in Germany.

Maureen

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

The cemetery information doesn't specifically say they all died in the same accident. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/34600/cologne-southern-cemetery/ 

It is possible they  died separately in swimming or boating  or other accidents,  (or perhaps even suicide) when possibly the deaths are less likely to be reported in newspapers.

In India in the 1930s there was even a death by drowning when an Armoured Car broke down on a bridge over a flooded river, and one of the men sent to help recover it drowned. I don't know if this sort of accident could happen in Germany.

Maureen

That's how I read it, separate incidents.

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

The cemetery information doesn't specifically say they all died in the same accident. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/34600/cologne-southern-cemetery/ 

It is possible they  died separately in swimming or boating  or other accidents,  (or perhaps even suicide) when possibly the deaths are less likely to be reported in newspapers.

In India in the 1930s there was even a death by drowning when an Armoured Car broke down on a bridge over a flooded river, and one of the men sent to help recover it drowned. I don't know if this sort of accident could happen in Germany.

Maureen

Yes it would seem more likely to be a series of incidents/accidents if not the result of a single mishap.  The fact that they appear to have occurred close together might be connected with warmer weather, perhaps, and also soldiers maybe given greater opportunity for recreational activities.

Edited 21 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[seaforths]

I have researched quite a number of POWs who attempted to swim the Rhine after escaping and more drowned than succeeded. From memory, a 6th Seaforth Hr. Drowned in a canal while returning to camp in the dark from celebrating the armistice and no doubt more than a little inebriated. It must have been devastating for the families to have their loved ones survive the war and then die under other circumstances. 

[JWK]

The temperature in the Netherlands (not that far away from Cologne) was ca 26'C on that day.

The German newspaper Rheinische Volkswacht reports on the 13th the drowning of a German soldier, and warns its readers to be extra cautious "during these hot days, and only go swimming there where is supervision."

[FROGSMILE]

Cer

20 minutes ago, JWK said:

The temperature in the Netherlands (not that far away from Cologne) was ca 26'C on that day.

The German newspaper Rheinische Volkswacht reports on the 13th the drowning of a German soldier, and warns its readers to be extra cautious "during these hot days, and only go swimming there where is supervision."

Certainly a picture building up based on circumstances at the time.

[Engineer678]

Hi all thanks for your replies, I’ve been searching the newspapers for a mention of John Robert Dommett, and have come to a blank. It’s is very unusual he’s not mentioned in divisional and brigade diaries I have to say.

I thought about another theory, could it be a failed rescue attempt from the river Rhine that went wrong ? However there’s nothing to back this. There has to be some mention of what happened out there. 

Kind regards Luke 

 

[helpjpl]

Graves Registration Report also shows:

Unknown British Soldier Found Drowned - 16 August 1919

Unknown British Soldier Found Drowned - 20 August 1919

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/901349/john-robert-dommett/#&gid=1&pid=1

JP

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Engineer678 said:

Hi all thanks for your replies, I’ve been searching the newspapers for a mention of John Robert Dommett, and have come to a blank. It’s is very unusual he’s not mentioned in divisional and brigade diaries I have to say.

I thought about another theory, could it be a failed rescue attempt from the river Rhine that went wrong ? However there’s nothing to back this. There has to be some mention of what happened out there. 

Kind regards Luke 

 

I suspect that a lot ‘found drowned’ were drunk and fell in the river.  The occasional undetected murder seems possible given  the circumstances of the time too.

[seaforths]

Unfortunately, in cases where there seems to be a dearth of records, it only leaves the exploration of various scenarios/theories to try to turn up information from somewhere.

The date of death may not be totally accurate. It could be based on the last time he was seen alive or based on a guestimate of how long the body had been in the water. As with other bodies of moving water, rivers can take a while to give up their dead which may be quite some distance from where they entered the water. If he stripped to take a dip at whatever time of day/night, drunk or sober, if nobody saw him, it may have taken some time for his body to be found, possibly some distance away and not necessarily on the same bank of the river that he entered into it. Even clothed with i.d. it would take a while for the administrative wheels to turn. The Army meanwhile will have followed their protocols when he was a no-show for duty. Absent from duty, then AWOL and some enquiries etc. They had no reason to list him as missing in official lists since the hostilities had ceased. Something else to consider, if he had been seen going into the river by someone that knew him, he wouldn’t be shown as missing - they knew where he was but it may have taken a while to recover his body.

A look at local newspapers downstream from where he would have been serving at the time may throw up a body being found in the river and even that could be days/weeks after he went in.

I once did come across documentation on a number of bodies that were found quite a few miles away in the Rhine from where they potentially would have entered and found by the staff of a waterworks…Just a few ideas…

[researchingreg]

After the collapse of Germany, much of the infrastructure was damaged and unsafe my Grandfather who was a private bugler in the QRWS and was in the BAOR, 1918 to 1919, in the Cologne area and he had an accident which could have drowned him  he had been out and was drunk with some of his mates and part of the road collapsed under him and he fell straight into a sewer, luckily some of slightly more sober mates managed to get him out and back to his billet. The trouble was when he went to blow reveille in the morning, worse for wear, there was **** in his bugle. One of the stories he told me about his Army service. I fact my Grandmother later called him the boogie woodies bugle boy of company B, when the song came out.

 

Edited 22 December , 2021 by researchingreg
Extra info on locatio

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, researchingreg said:

After the collapse of Germany, much of the infrastructure was damaged and unsafe my Grandfather who was a private bugler in the QRWS and was in the BAOR, 1918 to 1919, had an accident which could have drowned him  he had been out and was drunk with some of his mates and part of the road collapsed under him and he fell straight into a sewer, luckily some of slightly more sober mates managed to get him out and back to his billet. The trouble was when he went to blow reveille in the morning, worse for wear, there was **** in his bugle. One of the stories he told me about his Army service. I fact my Grandmother later called him the boogie woodies bugle boy of company B, when the song came out.

 

One of those stories that gets better with each telling I think. There’s no reason why he would take a bugle to go with his mates for a drink.  Bugles were carried on duty (including for training), but certainly not for walking out (he would have had to book out at the guardroom).  Even if he wanted to be rebellious, it’s difficult to conceive of circumstances whereby he could justify falling down a sewer with his bugle, unless he happened to be on duty; which seems exceedingly unlikely.

[researchingreg]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

One of those stories that gets better with each telling I think. There’s no reason why he would take a bugle to go with his mates for a drink.  Bugles were carried on duty (including for training), but certainly not for walking out (he would have had to book out at the guardroom).  Even if he wanted to be rebellious, it’s difficult to conceive of circumstances whereby he could justify falling down a sewer with his bugle, unless he happened to be on duty; which seems exceedingly unlikely.

Probably but it was one of his stories

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, researchingreg said:

Probably but it was one of his stories

I don’t doubt it, but a large piece of salt required in this particular case methinks.

Edited 22 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Engineer678]

Thank you all for your replies, its very possible the Pte Dommett died of a pure accident fell in the river Rhine wrong place wrong time, I will keep searching the papers for more clues on what happened there has to be a paper trail out the somewhere. Kind regards Luke  

[MaureenE]

If you haven't already done so, check out the Findmypast database "British Armed Forces and Overseas  Deaths" which probably won't have anything, but probably worth checking.

Another possibility, if you are very keen, is to try and find out if there is a Death record in the German civil registration records, which possibly may have details

I'm not sure exactly how you would do this, but there is a FamilySearch Wiki page Germany Civil Registration which may have relevant details https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Germany_Civil_Registration

Maureen

[seaforths]

Points raised by Charlie & Maureen earlier…

There may have been an inquiry but at that time it may have come under the jurisdiction of RMP/Provost and presumably, they kept diaries. Also, so many drowning would not have gone unnoticed by the medicos and their diaries may have some information. In addition to that there is a subset of diary files containing sensitive information that was removed from the main diary files and I do not know if these were ever digitised and may still have to be viewed at Kew; mainly disciplinaries etc but you never know. Suicide, as Maureen mentioned, might not have been publicised in the press and may account for a lack of information in the media there and at home if the family chose not to put information in the papers. As Maureen also suggested, looking for a death cert in local records and the English records office might help. I have a couple of questions to ask:

Does it specifically state he/they drowned in the Rhine? There may have been another body of water in their locality; ponds, lakes, streams etc.

Where exactly was the unit located from middle of July to middle of August? I may well have some contemporary maps of the area. Modern maps are of limited use as areas have changed so much since then.

 

[charlie2]

42 minutes ago, seaforths said:

Where exactly was the unit located from middle of July to middle of August? I

The War Diary for July/August records the Bn was in the Marialinden sector and mentions the villages/towns of Drabenderhöhe, Höhe, Grützenbach and Marialinden itself, all of which are 30-40 Kms east of Cologne. D Coy moved to Cologne-Kalk on the east bank of the Rhine on the 8th August. The nearest river to the Marialinden sector is the river Agger but as you pointed out, one doesn‘t need a river to drown.

Charlie