Spanish Mauser British Use

[AlanD]

This photograph which was originally posted on this forum a number of years ago appears to show a Mauser rifle. The rifle does not have a semi pistol grip stock so it is not an Arisaka. Which model of Mauser I am not sure - 1893?

Tony Edwards (TonyE) did some research  at Kew and sent me a draft copy of a paper on this purchase of Spanish Mauser rifles . I am not sure if it was ever published in one of his booklets. The file/s at Kew were just a bit ambiguous as to conclusively proving that Britain received any Spanish Mauser rifles, but this photograph would suggest that Britain did get some.

 

I know a contract was signed with a company for the purchase of these rifles as I found a copy in the London Metropolitan Archives.

 

Has anyone got a photo in their collection showing a Mauser rife with British troops? It will almost certainty be taken in a home front training situation.

It would be nice to find out the exact quantity that were purchased, but more research is required.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

[4thGordons]

Hi Alan

i have all Tony’s books on secondary small arms. I’ll have a look at them and see if anything made it in. I simply don’t remember. I too had a chat with Tony about these when he was visiting me. I should be able to check this afternoon.

might not the rifle in the picture also be a Chilean or Brazilian Mauser? There are quite a few pics of those mostly in RN service and with armed trawlers.

Chris

[4thGordons]

32 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Hi Alan

i have all Tony’s books on secondary small arms. I’ll have a look at them and see if anything made it in. I simply don’t remember. I too had a chat with Tony about these when he was visiting me. I should be able to check this afternoon.

might not the rifle in the picture also be a Chilean or Brazilian Mauser? There are quite a few pics of those mostly in RN service and with armed trawlers.

Chris

I went through all 4 volumes quickly and do not see any mention at all:

I thought I recalled a THREAD ON THIS and was able to dig it up HERE -- and I see it was the thread you were referring to! 

I suspect THAT HERE Tony sent me the same information he sent you -- I am searching my digital files to look for it but 10 years is a long time for someone as disorganized as I am.

Chris

 

[AlanD]

So there are a few options as to what this rifle is and where it came from.

 

Reading Tony Edwards paper on the Spanish Mausers we know that Treasury approved the purchase - that's a big step. We also know that a contract was signed via J.P. Morgan for the purchase of same. The date of all this was late 1915 when there was a chronic shortage of rifles, so there would seem to be every incentive to go-ahead with the purchase and take delivery.

The initial discussions concerned a quantity of 65,000 rifles complete with bayonet and sling. Later another purchase of 200,000 was being contemplated. The rifle in question would have been the 7mm Model 1893. However if 65,000 were purchased how come we do not see them in a lot more photos than the single example on this thread? Did they all get sent to Russia, if so when?  Is this mentioned in any files at Kew, like the Arisaka rifles are? 65,000 rifles is a lot of rifles there would have been inter-departmental correspondence on this. Perhaps the file did not survive the purging of documents at the end of the war?

 

Next candidate is the possibility that this is a Chilean Mauser rifle and was part of the equipment supplied to two Warships Vickers were building for Chile in 1904 and which were taken over by the Admiralty and known as HMS Swiftsure and HMS Triumph. This is covered in detail in one of Tony's booklets, British Secondary Issue Small Arms Part 4, Royal Navy Small Arms. It is not known if the small arms which included Vickers MG's in 7mm rifles had already been supplied and were taken over. However, a round 'Cartridge S.A Ball .276 inch ( Mark 1 ) (N) Small arms and Machine Guns: HMS Swiftsure and Triumph', was approved, with drawings for the round being prepared. So one would assume that the machine guns and rifles were taken over? The quantity of rifles would have been small being in the low hundreds if it was only two Warship complements. This may support the lack of photos of these rifles in service, which may have been put into store previously and then used for training.

 

Please note the above is nothing to do with the 820 Chilean Model 1912 Mauser rifles which were taken of some other Chilean warships in 1914. These are what are seen in the photo of the trawler men in Tony's book. I have examined one of these rifles which is in the IWM collection and has British sold out of service markings. They have a low A prefix serial number.

 

As I understand it the Model 1893 and Chilean Model 1895 rifles look very similar and I don't think it is possible to tell the difference in the photo at the start of this thread.

 

The third possibility is that its a rifle that was captured in the Boar War but this is quite a complicated area with a few different rifles including one large shipment that got intercepted but I think these had a turned down bolt handle, not one that stuck out at 90C.

 

So take your pick, personally I would guess the rifle in the photo is one of a few hundred taken over in 1904, kept in store and then used for training in 1914, but this is speculation on my part.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4thGordons]

I had a few minutes and a (sort of) willing assistant so here are 3 "recreations"

I agree that is impossible to tell with any certainty from the original picture - but I still feel that it is an Arisaka not a Mauser 1893 or 1895. Based largely on the more prominent stepping of the tiggerguard/plate and the thickness of the butt caused by the Arisaka's pistol grip style (and the position of the rear sling swivel) Both Mauser types have a spring clip holding the front sling swivel in place - -the Arisaka does not - this area is mostly concealed by the soldiers right hand but I see no sign of it on the original and I think it might be visible -- however  -- you pays your money you takes your choice!

Chris

Spanish 1893 Mauser

Boer Contract (Chilean) Mauser

 

Arisaka

Spanish 1893 Mauser rifle 7mm

Boer Contract Chilean M1895 Mauser 7mm

Arisaka 6.5mm

 

 

 

[AlanD]

Nice set of comparative photos.

 

I have noticed that the semi pistol grip of the Arisaka shows up in all the photos you see of them. In the original photo see how the Lee Metford Mk1* grip shows up in light and shadow, and I would hardly call that a semi pistol grip.

 

Regards

 

Alan