Uniform Identification Request - Scottish Regiment

[Gow67]

Posting this on behalf of my friend Nan Brady. Photo shows her father George Easton Sneddon from Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire. He was born there on 27th July 1897.

George actually served in the Royal Navy in WW1, service no: K36023, from 30th August 1916 to the end of war, so this photo must have been taken in 1914 -1915.

Photo is best resolution available and belt buckle is difficult to discern. Any other clues from the photo that might identify the uniform? I thought it might be Cameron Highlanders but Glengarry might be wrong?

Many thanks in advance!

Edited 18 April , 2022 by Gow67
Title spelling

[Gunner 87]

7 hours ago, Gow67 said:

Posting this on behalf of my friend Nan Brady. Photo shows her father George Easton Sneddon from Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire. He was born there on 27th July 1897.

George actually served in the Royal Navy in WW1, service no: K36023, from 30th August 1916 to the end of war, so this photo must have been taken in 1914 -1915.

Photo is best resolution available and belt buckle is difficult to discern. Any other clues from the photo that might identify the uniform? I thought it might be Cameron Highlanders but Glengarry might be wrong?

Many thanks in advance!

Hello. Could this a 5th (Sutherland and Caithness) Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders uniform? There are quite a number of Sneddon's in the regiment including a Thomas Sneddon which maybe Georges brother. 

I have tagged @Ron Abbottwho may correct me and advise accordingly.

Edited 19 April , 2022 by Gunner 87

[Ron Abbott]

The pattern of glengarry as well as the tartan and possibly the sporran (although the cantle doesn't appear correct) seem similar to those of the 5th Seaforth, but not the hose.  They appear to be red and white (as worn by the other Seaforth battalions) whereas the 5th Seaforth wore red and green diced hose. 

Other regiments wearing a two-colour diced glengarry would obviously be the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders as well as the Toronto Scottish and the Shanghai Scottish but the other accoutrements/attire don't match up with them either.

 

Maybe some point in time the 5th Seaforth did wear hose of that colour and a sporran cantle of that design but I haven't seen any photos of such. 

Maybe TullochArd or Gordon92 could provide better advice.   

Furthermore, what's happened to the sporran, the belt and the kilt?  They don't appear to have had much care and attention!    

[Gunner 87]

11 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

The pattern of glengarry as well as the tartan and possibly the sporran (although the cantle doesn't appear correct) seem similar to those of the 5th Seaforth, but not the hose.  They appear to be red and white (as worn by the other Seaforth battalions) whereas the 5th Seaforth wore red and green diced hose. 

Other regiments wearing a two-colour diced glengarry would obviously be the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders as well as the Toronto Scottish and the Shanghai Scottish but the other accoutrements/attire don't match up with them either.

 

Maybe some point in time the 5th Seaforth did wear hose of that colour and a sporran cantle of that design but I haven't seen any photos of such. 

Maybe TullochArd or Gordon92 could provide better advice.   

Furthermore, what's happened to the sporran, the belt and the kilt?  They don't appear to have had much care and attention!    

Ron, one thought that crossed my mind, considering this man joined the RN in 1916 at 19 years of age, is that he is possibly a member of a OTC. I pretty much ran through every Scottish regiment and this uniform didn't fit any bar the 5th Seaforth's if the hose are red and green in the photo. Was do you think of the OTC?  

[FROGSMILE]

The belt is filthy, clasp tarnished and buff leather not whitened.  The drill jacket has dulled buttons, is ill fitting (curled) around the collar, and the sporran has been damaged and repaired with one tassel replaced lower than the other.  I’m fairly sure it’s one of those spoof photos that we spotted some weeks back, as @TullochArdand @Ron Abbottmight recall, as they assisted me with dissecting it via PM - that uniform too had an erroneous make up with even the clasp worn upside down and spats with broken bone stiffeners (see below - the annotated name is incorrect and that of a Scots Guard KIA).  It seems that there was a photographer in Scotland capitalising on the craze for photos in Scots uniform as men waited to join up.

NB.  It looks like it’s the same sporran, but absent the badge, and the belt has its GS clasp adjustment/retaining ring on the same side (the other missing), so it too appears to be possibly the same one.

 

Edited 1 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

14 hours ago, Gow67 said:

George actually served in the Royal Navy in WW1, service no: K36023, from 30th August 1916

Does the underlined section have any bearing on any possible previous service? (have taken the date as 25 April 1912)

 

(image snippet courtesy of Find My Past)

Edited 19 April , 2022 by Allan1892

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

Does the underlined section have any bearing on any possible previous service? (have taken the date as 25 April 1912)

 

(image snippet courtesy of Find My Past)

@horatio2is the best person to examine naval records.  There’s nothing that I can see that suggests previous service in the regulars or auxiliaries.  The uniform in the OP is riddled with howlers, as explained.

[Allan1892]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The uniform in the OP is riddled with howlers, as explained.

Yes, I can see what you have explained and compared the two images.

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/04/2022 at 16:03, Allan1892 said:

Yes, I can see what you have explained and compared the two images.

It’s quite intriguing that so many such photos are associated with Scotland.  I can recall over a decade ago three men dressed in Scots uniforms with similar oddities and yet all of them were recorded as coastal Trawlermen with no sign of any military service.  Since then there have been several of these types of portrait appearing and all are riddled with errors. It may be connected with the romanticism of the Scottish uniform that was encouraged by Sir Walter Scott, and in the early months of the war quite a number of young men seem to have taken the opportunity to have such fake photos taken in a way that’s not at all common in the other home nations.

By way of an example, the following are the  collaborative comments regarding the final photo posted above and based on a collegiate assessment by several Scottish uniform enthusiasts who frequent the forum:

1.  The glengarry is a complete mismatch to the remainder of the uniform, especially the Cameron’s sporran, which is the only item with insignia.  It is also too small for the head it sits on.

2.  There are no collar badges, which at that time all other ranks were wearing on the regimental full dress tunic that is worn in the photo.

3.  The doublet style tunic is also ill-fitting, i.e. too tight and sleeves to short, whereas these were the only garment that was carefully individually fitted to each soldier.  It also appears to be grey rather than scarlet (which latter colour it would need to be to match with other items).

4.  The waist belt is being worn upside down (see photo), has not been whitened, as it generally would be, and is missing one of the two adjustment slides that normally sit either side of the clasp (buckle).

5.  The annual efficiency lozenge on the cuff is partially unstitched so that it’s sticking out on one side.

6.  Buttons are manifestly unpolished.

7.  The Cameron’s sporran has been repaired, but left one tassel (on the left) too short so that they do not hang evenly.

8.   The kilt is tatty (unpressed), hangs unevenly, and is a plain colour, which in GB only the London Scottish wore at that time (called ‘Hodden Grey’ - see photo).

9.  His hose are missing the garter tabs always used to hold them up and that normally sit distinctively on the outside.

10.  The short spats are mismatched in that the bone that keeps them standing vertical is missing on one foot but not the other, which leads to it collapsing into folds.  They have also not been creased along the foot part as they normally would be.

Conclusion:  there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this is a dressing up photo.

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

I would agree with with all of observations stated above regarding the OP. There is absolutely nothing right about this uniform.

[Gow67]

Thanks to all who have replied. Absolutely fascinating information.

[TullochArd]

On 19/04/2022 at 16:14, FROGSMILE said:

It’s quite intriguing that so many such photos are associated with Scotland........ 

......... it sure is ....... and it's not just the blokes at it. Must say these two girls are better turned out than many of the rag-tag fellows we've seen earlier. 

(Photographer: Ernest James Privett, Ferry Road, Invergordon taken probably 1920s. 

Edited 27 April , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/04/2022 at 20:55, TullochArd said:

......... it sure is ....... and it's not just the blokes at it. Must say these two girls are better turned out than many of the rag-tag fellows we've seen earlier. 

(Photographer: Ernest James Privett, Ferry Road, Invergordon taken probably 1920s. 

Absolutely brilliant, that’s definitely the best of the genre that I’ve ever seen!  I’ll raise you by one…

Edited 8 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Here’s another dog’s breakfast of a spoof photograph, seemingly taken in a photographic studio using a hotchpotch of props early in WW1. The jacket is that of a Seaforth Highlander’s bandsman, but apart from the fact that there’s no collar, nor cap insignia, none of the other dress items match either (and of course the belt is filthy).

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Hill244]

On 19/04/2022 at 16:14, FROGSMILE said:

It’s quite intriguing that so many such photos are associated with Scotland.  I can recall over a decade ago three men dressed in Scots uniforms with similar oddities and yet all of them were recorded as Trawlermen with no sign of any military service.  Since then there have been several of these types of portrait appearing and all are riddled with errors. It may be connected with the romanticism of the Scottish uniform that was encouraged by Sir Walter Scott, and in the early months of the war quite a number of young men seem to have taken the opportunity to have such fake photos taken in a way that’s not at all common in the other home nations.

By way of an example, the following are the  collaborative comments regarding the final photo posted above and based on a collegiate assessment by several Scottish uniform enthusiasts who frequent the forum:

1.  The glengarry is a complete mismatch to the remainder of the uniform, especially the Cameron’s sporran, which is the only item with insignia.  It is also too small for the head it sits on.

2.  There are no collar badges, which at that time all other ranks were wearing on the regimental full dress tunic that is worn in the photo.

3.  The doublet style tunic is also ill-fitting, i.e. too tight and sleeves to short, whereas these were the only garment that was carefully individually fitted to each soldier.  It also appears to be grey rather than scarlet (which latter colour it would need to be to match with other items).

4.  The waist belt is being worn upside down (see photo), has not been whitened, as it generally would be, and is missing one of the two adjustment slides that normally sit either side of the clasp (buckle).

5.  The annual efficiency lozenge on the cuff is partially unstitched so that it’s sticking out on one side.

6.  Buttons are manifestly unpolished.

7.  The Cameron’s sporran has been repaired, but left one tassel (on the left) too short so that they do not hang evenly.

8.   The kilt is tatty (unpressed), hangs unevenly, and is a plain colour, which in GB only the London Scottish wore at that time (called ‘Hodden Grey’ - see photo).

9.  His hose are missing the garter tabs always used to hold them up and that normally sit distinctively on the outside.

10.  The short spats are mismatched in that the bone that keeps them standing vertical is missing on one foot but not the other, which leads to it collapsing into folds.  They have also not been creased along the foot part as they normally would be.

Conclusion:  there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this is a dressing up photo.

Would it be a kilt apron perhaps?

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/06/2022 at 15:08, Hill244 said:

Would it be a kilt apron perhaps?

No, you can see the rough cut edge to the bottom and also the tasseled edge. That photo has been conclusively debunked, as have all in this thread. It’s just an example showing some of the utter nonsense that was going on really.

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE