Helmets for St.johns ambulance

[Alan24]

On 19/05/2022 at 12:03, howard simcoe said:

The general question  is  did the st. John ambulance brigade put  there insignia on  there helmets if issued?

The consensus is that they did not but you may be interested to know that they did wear the SJA badge on their lower left sleeve as well as the Red Crosses in the usual place for a member of the RAMC.

 

[Matlock1418]

Now we seem to have largely settled on an answer regarding the seemingly unlikely use of St JA badges and Brodies in WW1 - and yet of course the topic is still very open as such.

1 hour ago, Alan24 said:

The consensus is that they did not but you may be interested to know that they did wear the SJA badge on their lower left sleeve as well as the Red Crosses in the usual place for a member of the RAMC.

 

May I suggest that these men in this photo rather appear to be RAMC soldiers, and that the badges thus seem positioned more akin to military trade-trained badges. rather than St J A members per se. Cap badges appear RAMC, but due to the imagery not wholly sure about the belt buckles.

I therefore ask the questions:

Are these RAMC soldiers?

Or men of the British Red Cross and the Order of St John of Jeruselem? - and if such some follow-up questions: Was this a formally-recognised uniformed service covering both organisations? [certainly Medal Rolls & MC indicate that medals were seemingly awarded as BRC & StJJ - up to 'trios' if I recall correctly and SWB badges too.]  How did that joint enterprise work anyway? - there were named BRCS base hospitals and also named St JA base hospitals, they didn't seem dual-named ??  CWGC have separate BRCS casualties and also St JA casualties.

Were there any options for St JA members and/or BRC to operate rather more independantly overseas outside of the military or quasi-military commands mentioned above.  As VAD?  Could these simply be St John Ambulance members?  To me these men in the photo above don't appear as such - happy to be corrected and/or further educated.

Puzzled and hoping to learn.

M

[Alan24]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Are these RAMC soldiers?

The cap badges suggest that they are.

The photo comes from a book on Eastleigh Casualty Clearing Station in Hampshire.

These men were working there.

Eastleigh CCS was set up in 1915 by the War Office with Lt Col Edward George Twiss heading it up. Retired 1907 having run a hospital in South Africa Boer War and at nearby Netley.

In 1915 he was Superintentant and Honorary Surgeon for the Southampton Division St John Ambulance Brigade.

The original staff were volunteers from the SJA and the book shows SJA uniforms. Later photos show the men in RAMC uniform with these badges on the lower arm.

I had assumed that after the MSA 1916 they could no longer be volunteers but were required to be part of the Army proper. 

I've always been convinced that the badges shown are SJA.

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

The cap badges suggest that they are.

They are what?  Please clarify

The cap badges look RAMC but the arm badge St JA.  I err towards the belt buckle badges likely being RAMC [I don't think it is a standard St JA buckle which I think was more clearly rectangular ??]

There is this other thread relating to the St Johns Ambulance badge https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/276720-st-john-ambulance-badge

It starts:  RAMC soldiers were permitted to wear the St John qualification badge. 

I pick up on the words qualification badge - but slightly puzzled by reference to it being worn on the upper arm [yet there were photos provided of such]

I thought qualification badges/trade badges, e.g. Signallers, Pioneers, Marksmen and Machine Gunners etc., were generally worn on the lower arm

Hence a Geneva Convention red cross on upper arm and St JA badge qualification on the lower arm - that's the way I would have interpretted the position of a badge on the lower arm 

???

M

Edited 21 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
further comment on belt buckle

[Alan24]

49 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

They are what?  Please clarify

I believe these men to be RAMC soldiers by way of the cap badges they are wearing.

I believe that they are wearing the SJA qualification badge on the lower sleeve.

I don't know about the belt buckles. I hadn't really noticed that before but they do look different to an infantryman's belt now you point it out.

In the context of the book, the CCS was set up by Twiss with 150 SJA men. The author notes that in an October 1915 photo all men are members of the SJA Ambulance Brigade but by late 1916 there are no SJA uniforms in the photos. 

I am making an assumption that the change of uniforms in various group photos has something to do with the MSA and the men in the photo that I posted were part of the original 150 SJA men. 

I'll post a couple of pages from the book in the morning which may clarify things. 

As you say, puzzling and hoping we can solve this one.

Edited 21 May , 2022 by Alan24

[Alan24]

Some notes here on the disappearance of SJA men replaced by RAMC men with SJA qualification badges.

Are they the same men having been mobilised by the MSA? As the author notes, some of these RAMC men were posted to the front. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/05/2022 at 21:52, Alan24 said:

I believe these men to be RAMC soldiers by way of the cap badges they are wearing.

I believe that they are wearing the SJA qualification badge on the lower sleeve.

I don't know about the belt buckles. I hadn't really noticed that before but they do look different to an infantryman's belt now you point it out.

In the context of the book, the CCS was set up by Twiss with 150 SJA men. The author notes that in an October 1915 photo all men are members of the SJA Ambulance Brigade but by late 1916 there are no SJA uniforms in the photos. 

I am making an assumption that the change of uniforms in various group photos has something to do with the MSA and the men in the photo that I posted were part of the original 150 SJA men. 

I'll post a couple of pages from the book in the morning which may clarify things. 

As you say, puzzling and hoping we can solve this one.

I agree that the cap insignia is RAMC and the arm badge in recognition that the men wearing it had previously been SJAB.  The waist belts are classed as obsolescent from old Slade-Wallace equipment and commonly issued to RAMC on home service early in the war.  They are fastened via the circular Union Clasp with its inscription DIEU ET MON DROIT, which was the general service clasp since regimental clasps were replaced in the early 1870s.  Once on service the belts were scrubbed and no longer whitened.  There is a thread about early SJAB uniform and arm badges here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/276720-st-john-ambulance-badge/

 

Edited 23 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree that the cap insignia is RAMC and the arm badge in recognition that the men wearing it had previously been SJAB. The waist belts are classed as obsolescent from old Slade-Wallace equipment and commonly issued to RAMC on home service early in the war.  

Thank you Frogsmile. That's an interesting bit of additional information on the photo that I posted.

I note the MHR cast badge similar to the Imperial Obligation badge.

I've never seen this before in any photos. Under what circumstances would that have been worn?

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Thank you Frogsmile. That's an interesting bit of additional information on the photo that I posted.

I note the MHR cast badge similar to the Imperial Obligation badge.

I've never seen this before in any photos. Under what circumstances would that have been worn?

I’m not at all sure Alan, because the SJAB really lies outside my purview other than when it touches on British Army dress.  I suspect that it might relate to SJAB men who volunteered to serve in ambulances overseas if called upon to do so, but that’s just my conjecture.  I’ve never seen it on Army uniform and so imagine it was probably for wear on the discrete black uniform worn by the SJAB at that time.

Edited 23 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

3 hours ago, Alan24 said:

I note the MHR cast badge similar to the Imperial Obligation badge.

I've never seen this before in any photos. Under what circumstances would that have been worn?

Military Hospitals Reserve - post-WW1 organisation and so not really relevant to the period covered by the forum.

Cheers,

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks GT, lessons learned from the war then so to speak.

[Madmeg]

I believe that during ww1 st John and red cross committees put away any internecine struggles and worked together. The red cross/crescent symbol is now trademarked (quite fiercly) and used to denote medical services acting under red cross auspices and their 7 guiding principles. In the past ( and sometimes nowadays until rx international trademarks catches up) it is used on armbands etc by medics. Looking at the photo of the ambulance above I would make the informed guess that the red cross showed ut was an ambulance while the st John logo showed who had provided it. 

I would imagine that in the trenches wearing a helmet with a bright red cross on it would have been asking for a bullet I'm the head!

I would suggest that the op could try british newspaper archive looking for uniform for red cross and st John operatives ( as a former member of both organizations the words ambulance driver are anathema :-) ) which might help?

[Madmeg]

Ref the above photos , I don't have the book handy but the st John first aid course was a recognized qualification (  as it is today) so I would imagine that men if the ramc who had taken that course would wear the badge as a qualifying patch? It was something like 16 weeks originally - now down to 12 hours :-(

and as stated above the red cross badge to signify medics, which would be a trademark infringement today.