charlie2 Posted 3 June , 2022 Share Posted 3 June , 2022 Jacubowsky - slightly different spelling but without doubt the same person, served with IR 74 http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4539529 Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 3 June , 2022 Share Posted 3 June , 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 4 June , 2022 Share Posted 4 June , 2022 Maybe of interest for some background info: Nurse Elsa Brändström's book about German POWs in Russia/Siberia, Denmark and Norway. On page 91 and 92 she mentions the numbers of internees. https://denstorekrig1914-1918.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Elsa-Brändström-1914-1920.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 4 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2022 (edited) Thanks for the heads up that Elsa Brändström's book contains info about the prisoners in Scandinavia. Because of the title I overlooked it. Her numbers for the German prisoners held in Norway are different (184 vs 193) to the ones published by the Norwegian government after the war. Grr, there's got to be some archival evidence somewhere to confirm!!! Some video recordings of Russian prisoners were made at Horserød in Denmark. I think it was for the weekly news reel. Unfortunately Norway seems to have been such a backwater that there was nothing equivalent, but I will call the National Library at some point to find out for sure. The historian in the video below mentions that after the Russian revolution the Danish government interviewed the men and divided them into different locations based on their loyalties. They then sent all the Communists to Hald. She also says there was a "humanitarian competition" between Denmark and Sweden to see who could help the most (as usual, Norway is totally forgotten). She talks about the mental/psychological states of the prisoners, and says that there were a number of suicides. Edited 4 June , 2022 by knittinganddeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 5 June , 2022 Share Posted 5 June , 2022 Interesting video! I don't speak Danish, but I can sort of understand it. Maybe Norway didn't make moving pictures, but there are stillpictures around: Like this one (from the Süddeutsche Zeitung) labeled "German internees in Norway, 1917" (with some Austrians thrown in for good measure) By the looks of it made as a memento of the visit of a, probably important, man and woman? https://www.sz-photo.de/geschichte/erster-weltkrieg/zivilinternierte-im-ersten-weltkrieg/dossier-1.880651 As for the list: I now have 176 names of German internees in Löken. If we believe the Norwegian government only 8 names remain missing, but I suspect it will be nearly impossible to find those. German POWs in Norway.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 6 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2022 (edited) Fantastic list, and I sadly agree that the rest will be almost impossible to find. Based on the snow, the photo looks like it might have been taken in the summer. The attribution is "Scherl" -- a photographer for the SDZ? I will check the Lagerbote more carefully to see if they had any press visits. Soldiers' families visited in June, and a Professor Heim came in September. Edited to add: "Scherl" seems to refer to the Berliner Scherl Verlag. Edited 6 June , 2022 by knittinganddeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 6 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2022 On 03/06/2022 at 14:40, FROGSMILE said: needs must if their old uniforms were worn out. There was very bad wool/cloth shortage in Germany then. Since the Attilas couldn't be used in combat, it makes a kind of sense to give them to POWs and save any Feldgrau for the soldiers in the field. It was also as good as prison garb in its distinctiveness should anyone try to escape, though I doubt that it was chosen specifically for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 June , 2022 Share Posted 6 June , 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said: There was very bad wool/cloth shortage in Germany then. Since the Attilas couldn't be used in combat, it makes a kind of sense to give them to POWs and save any Feldgrau for the soldiers in the field. It was also as good as prison garb in its distinctiveness should anyone try to escape, though I doubt that it was chosen specifically for that reason. Yes, I recall reading about clothing and cloth shortages, with the authorities even resorting to ersatz bandages being made from paper. The subject of the dress of POWs in general (of all nations) has drawn out some strange facts in this forum. British and other entente prisoners early in the war were provided with replacement uniforms by the German authorities that included rather smart caps with leather peaks, other items seem to have been provided via the International Red Cross, and in one series of photos British prisoners exchanged items of Scottish uniform in order to look smarter in portrait photographs organised in the camps, but intended for sending home. It led to some men wearing odd cap badges for units that were not their own, and caused some confusion for us uniform enthusiasts trying to make sense of it over one hundred years later. Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 6 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2022 On 02/06/2022 at 17:19, JWK said: The oldest was Gustav Wirk, an Oberstleutnant ausser Dienst, born in 1847, so some 70 years old! He died in 1935 at the age of 88: https://www.braunschweig.de/leben/stadtportraet/geschichte/stadtchronik.php?id4=1935&seite=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 7 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2022 (edited) The Attilas were taken into use very soon after arrival in Norway. In May 1917 Aftenposten (Oslo daily) described the men as wearing a "peacetime uniform, a blue Waffenrock with red trim/piping and red cuffs and shiny brass buttons." Edited to add: They probably weren't Attilas, see posts by AOK4 and charlie2 below. Thanks, guys! The reporter also talked to "the chief/boss of the prisoners" who was a "premier/first lieutenant" -- possibly Oblt. d. R. Kurt Hensel who is confirmed to be at Løken rather than the officers' camp at Hovelsåsen. Source: https://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digavis_aftenposten_null_null_19170526_58_261_2 Edited 7 June , 2022 by knittinganddeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said: a blue Waffenrock with red trim/piping and red cuffs and shiny brass buttons That sounds more like infantry uniform. The cuffs on the Attila didn‘t differ in colour from the Attila itself. To quote from Knötel and Pietsch again „der abgerundete Kragen und die Aufschläge hatten stets dieselbe Farbe wie der Attila.“ - the rounded collar and cuffs were always the same colour as the Attila. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 13 minutes ago, charlie2 said: That sounds more like infantry uniform. The cuffs on the Attila didn‘t differ in colour from the Attila itself. To quote from Knötel and Pietsch again „der abgerundete Kragen und die Aufschläge hatten stets dieselbe Farbe wie der Attila.“ - the rounded collar and cuffs were always the same colour as the Attila. Charlie Never believe word for word what's in a newspaper... The journalist may have meant the stitchings at the front and the stitchings at the cuffs. Although there were no blue jackets with red Schnüre for any regiment as far as I can see. But I agree that that particular description fits for some peacetime infantry uniform jackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 12 minutes ago, AOK4 said: Never believe word for word what's in a newspaper... The journalist may have meant the stitchings at the front and the stitchings at the cuffs. Although there were no blue jackets with red Schnüre for any regiment as far as I can see. But I agree that that particular description fits for some peacetime infantry uniform jackets. Like these perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 2 hours ago, AOK4 said: Never believe word for word what's in a newspaper... Quite so, but in this case I think the description was pretty accurate. In the photo linked to by JWK there are two soldiers in peacetime uniform to the left of the lady. https://www.sz-photo.de/?16607724099100603390&EVENT=POPUP&WINDOW=WGWINe4704873e01b6fac8cb1c19fdf7143a9&AJXUID=0.5814488914217354&MEDIANUMBER=00474142&MEDIAITEMS=9c278f350f18e05214826799e1a1f95a76392909&OMG=410235f84d82&PAGING_SCOPE_4=7&MEDIAGROUP_SCOPE=2 The seated soldier‘s tunic has what look to be Swedish cuffs. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 The photo in the Norwegian newspaper, despite its poor quality, pretty much confirms the reporters description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 7 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2022 Gah, I spent so much time looking at that photo trying to figure out if it was taken at the same time as the one linked by JWK, and somehow it never occurred to me that ACTUALLY THEY ARE NOT WEARING ATTILAS. Maybe it's time for a little break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 7 June , 2022 Share Posted 7 June , 2022 Indeed, on that pic a lot of the men are wearing a Friedensrock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 26 June , 2022 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2022 A funny coincidence regarding the Hussar uniforms: Lorenz Sahner, the only man to have died at Løken, was said to be a Hussar in Norwegian newspapers (actually he came from the Grenadier Regiment Nr. 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 6 August , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2022 I've just posted my article about German POWs in Norway: here on my blog. It is still a work in progress as I was not yet able to visit the Oslo Philatelist Club to check some relevant books. It also lacks the geographical mapping of the POWs' hometowns. But the broad strokes are in place. Thank you all for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 6 August , 2022 Share Posted 6 August , 2022 3 hours ago, knittinganddeath said: Thank you all for your help! Always happy to help and thank you for the very interesting blog. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 6 August , 2022 Share Posted 6 August , 2022 Very interesting blog! Quite a bit of research involved in that. Had some time this afternoon so here's where the POW's came from: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 8 August , 2022 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2022 On 06/08/2022 at 17:59, JWK said: here's where the POW's came from Great work, thank you! More Saxons than I had realised, and a surprising cluster of Alsatians (?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 15 August , 2022 Author Share Posted 15 August , 2022 @JWK (incremental) progress is being made in the case of Lorenz Sahner! The church at Lomen has gotten back to me, and they say that the burial is registered in the church books as taking place on 27 September 1917. They are now trying to determine if the grave itself is still there. I think the parish is quite large so it may rely on finding someone with a good knowledge of that particular churchyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 15 August , 2022 Share Posted 15 August , 2022 On 08/08/2022 at 21:06, knittinganddeath said: Great work, thank you! More Saxons than I had realised, and a surprising cluster of Alsatians (?). It's not that surprising considering that Alsatians were mostly sent to the Eastern Front as their will to fight France was often questioned by the German authorities. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knittinganddeath Posted 17 August , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2022 On 15/08/2022 at 13:11, AOK4 said: Alsatians were mostly sent to the Eastern Front Thank you for the clarification! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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