Chaplains- uniforms and insignia

[AEF1918]

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread to share uniforms, insignia and photos of Chaplains. Any country. I know very little about this and am eager to see what can be learned. 
 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AEF1918 said:

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread to share uniforms, insignia and photos of Chaplains. Any country. I know very little about this and am eager to see what can be learned. 
 

 

In the British Army they are employed within the Royal Army Chaplains Department and hold a special type of commission with each level equivalent to a conventional military rank.  Ever since the Napoleonic Wars, within the units in which they serve (they are attached just as a Medical Officer is) they are without exception known as ‘the Padre’.

It’s rare that subjects have not already been discussed in the forum.  Here is an example concerning the dress of British Army Chaplains: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/294225-chaplain-badge-pouch/#comment-3065187

They don’t hold a true military rank, but accepted a clerical grade that used military rank badges just to ensure that soldiers understood their padre’s position in the pecking order.  It caused quite a fuss at the time, with the Anglicans supporting the wearing of status badges, all the non-conformists uniting in outraged and vehement opposition, and the Roman Catholic’s (who love a bit of bling) sat on the fence. In the end, ‘the Tories at prayer‘ prevailed.

The wearing of rank was a later development and partly connected with friction around the decision to issue the Army Chaplains with orders and give them an Army policy to follow.  The non-conformists stance, was that they did not wish to be under formal, army orders, but just to tender to their units as a flock, or congregation that just happened to wear uniform.  The Anglicans were a part of the British establishment class and thus more nuanced about being militarised.  It was from that position of acceding to the wishes of Horse Guards (Army HQ) that the adoption of rank badges evolved.

 

Edited 30 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

good morning,

what the button looks like for Chaplains?

thank's in advance

regards

Michel

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

what the button looks like for Chaplains?

thank's in advance

regards

Michel

Hello Michel,

It was an unusual button during WW1, see below.
It then changed to a new design, along with the cap and collar badges, between the two world wars.

[michaeldr]

Found here https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20190319192840/https://anglicanarchives.org.au/ the Anglican Records & Archives Centre for the Anglican Church Southern Queensland - Not all this group are chaplains, but there are some and with a variety of uniforms

 

[michaeldr]

This is Bishop Llewellyn H. Gwynne as Deputy Chaplain- General. I can't make out what he has on the flap of his left pocket, (perhaps it's just creased) but he has managed to include a crucifix at his jacket's top button

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, michaeldr said:

This is Bishop Llewellyn H. Gwynne as Deputy Chaplain- General. I can't make out what he has on the flap of his left pocket, (perhaps it's just creased) but he has managed to include a crucifix at his jacket's top button

The pocket blotch is a fold and shadow.  The cross is very likely to be a fob for a pocket watch. I have seen a photo of another padre doing similar.

[michaeldr]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The pocket blotch is a fold and shadow.  The cross is very likely to be a fob for a pocket watch. I have seen a photo of another padre doing similar.

Thanks for your thoughts on this one FS; I think you're likely right in both cases

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Thanks for your thoughts on this one FS; I think you're likely right in both cases

It’s a fine photo.  To start with the Chaplains General wore black gorget tabs, but it was felt to be a colour with beelzebub undertones and so was changed to purple.

Edited 30 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AEF1918]

Fantastic information. Thanks all! 

[michaeldr]

This is the Rev Leib Aisak Falk who served with the 38^th Royal Fusiliers. There's a brief biography of him here https://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/Profiles/minister_profiles_orthodox_F.htm and the photograph is found in Col J H Patterson's book 'With the Judeans in the Palestine Campaign.' The Rabbi's cap badge is the post war (1919?) Menorah adopted by the 1^st Judeans (see chapter 34 in Patterson's book)

Edited 30 August , 2022 by michaeldr

[Alan24]

Rev EGF Macpherson, Chaplain to the Forces, 1st Class, Winchester. 

Mentioned in Despatches. LG 20.10.14

Served in the South African War 1899-1902 awarded QSA (6 clasps), KSA.

1914 Star & Rosette.

Attached. 8th Field Ambulance. [I wonder if that has anything to do with 8th Division who left Hursley Park near Winchester in Oct 1914.?]

Probably photographed around 1912. 

I've had this postcard for sometime but never got round to finding out what part he may have played in the Great War.

Edited 30 August , 2022 by Alan24

[AEF1918]

1 hour ago, Alan24 said:

Rev EGF Macpherson, Chaplain to the Forces, 1st Class, Winchester. 

Mentioned in Despatches.

Probably photographed around 1912. 

I've had this postcard for sometime but never got round to finding out what part he may have played in the Great War.

Thanks for sharing! 

[AEF1918]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

This is the Rev Leib Aisak Falk who served with the 38^th Royal Fusiliers. There's a brief biography of him here https://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/Profiles/minister_profiles_orthodox_F.htm and the photograph is found in Col J H Patterson's book 'With the Judeans in the Palestine Campaign.' The Rabbi's cap badge is the post war (1919?) Menorah adopted by the 1^st Judeans (see chapter 34 in Patterson's book)

Thanks for sharing! I know in US armed forces, chaplains perform services and provide for spiritual needs of all forces regardless of religion. Would it have been the same for this chaplain? Or would he strictly provide for Jewish service members? 

[battle of loos]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hello Michel,

It was an unusual button during WW1, see below.
It then changed to a new design, along with the cap and collar badges, between the two world wars.

thank's 

 

michel

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, AEF1918 said:

Thanks for sharing! I know in US armed forces, chaplains perform services and provide for spiritual needs of all forces regardless of religion. Would it have been the same for this chaplain? Or would he strictly provide for Jewish service members? 

He was specifically for Jewish soldiers.  At that time they were the only addition to the Christian chaplains.  They were also subsequently granted their own special design of cap badge.  The photo below shows the very first Jewish chaplain, Padre Adler.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/151071-royal-army-chaplains-dept-cap-badge/

 

Edited 30 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AEF1918]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He was specifically for Jewish soldiers.  At that time they were the only addition to the Christian chaplains.  They were also subsequently granted their own special design of cap badge.  The photo below shows the very first Jewish chaplain, Padre Adler.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/151071-royal-army-chaplains-dept-cap-badge/

 

Great information!

cheers

[michaeldr]

What is the collective noun for a group of chaplains?
Two Gallipoli groups, one at Helles https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205351929 
and the second at Anzac https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205027880

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

What is the collective noun for a group of chaplains?
Two Gallipoli groups, one at Helles https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205351929 
and the second at Anzac https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205027880

A coterie perhaps, Michael (at least it alliterates well).  Great photos that I’ve not seen before.  As regards dress, one aspect that I’ve noticed is that some did not wear the dog collar and from what I’ve been able to ascertain this apparently denoted that they were from non denominational churches.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

What is the collective noun for a group of chaplains?

"Coterie"
 
That's an excellent suggestion.

…...........................................................

This is Rabbi Adler again - https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205289380 
but later than your previous one. Note a better cap badge, no beard and now with medal ribbons 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

What is the collective noun for a group of chaplains?

"Coterie"
 
That's an excellent suggestion.

…...........................................................

This is Rabbi Adler again - https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205289380 
but later than your previous one. Note a better cap badge, no beard and now with medal ribbons 

Yes I was intrigued by his earlier badge.  The precise history seems unclear, but there is clear evidence that for a short while the Star of David without crown was worn (no doubt because the Sovereign was head of the Church of England).  How that conundrum was resolved I don’t know.  It’s interesting too that Rabbi Adler first became a Chaplain, via the Territorial Force, in 1909.  This links with the contemporary situation where Sikh Gurus and Islamic Imams are appointed via the Army Reserve.  I don’t think there are many regulars.

[michaeldr]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

one aspect that I’ve noticed is that some did not wear the dog collar and from what I’ve been able to ascertain this apparently denoted that they were from non denominational churches.

As far as I can see there seems to be no clear rule: here is the Bishop of Birmingham sans dog collar, but with collar&tie  https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290625

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

As far as I can see there seems to be no clear rule: here is the Bishop of Birmingham sans dog collar, but with collar&tie  https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290625

Thanks Michael, that’s interesting.  I’ve seen more junior individual chaplains similarly dressed, and it seemed to be a bit random.  Also in some group photos.  I’m not sure what the definitive answer is.  Interestingly Rev George Smissen appears in both forms of dress here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/rev-george-smissen-mc/

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The precise history seems unclear, but there is clear evidence that for a short while the Star of David without crown was worn

Probably not the full story, nevertheless this may help here

From: https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10108956/7/Lewis_10108956_Thesis.pdf

see p. 307

Research elicited that since 1914 Jewish chaplains had worn a badge of the Star of David surmounted by a Crown but that no record of the formal approval of the badge could be traced, and that when the existing badge of the RAChD had been approved in 1930 nothing had been settled as regards Jews. So Jewish cap and collar badges were designed of a Star of David surmounted by the Imperial Crown embellished with a wreath of laurel and oak leaves and with a central ornamental button bearing a quatrefoil. The badge was approved by the War Office and in May 1940 by the King and dies for the badge were commissioned.⁷

note No.7 is given as - National Archives, file WO/32/9455. JC 16/8/1940, p. 16

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Probably not the full story, nevertheless this may help here

From: https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10108956/7/Lewis_10108956_Thesis.pdf

see p. 307

Research elicited that since 1914 Jewish chaplains had worn a badge of the Star of David surmounted by a Crown but that no record of the formal approval of the badge could be traced, and that when the existing badge of the RAChD had been approved in 1930 nothing had been settled as regards Jews. So Jewish cap and collar badges were designed of a Star of David surmounted by the Imperial Crown embellished with a wreath of laurel and oak leaves and with a central ornamental button bearing a quatrefoil. The badge was approved by the War Office and in May 1940 by the King and dies for the badge were commissioned.⁷

note No.7 is given as - National Archives, file WO/32/9455. JC 16/8/1940, p. 16

Yes I think that encapsulates the latter part of WW1 and then into WW2 very well.  It’s the star without a surmounting crown that isn’t clear.  Certainly that’s what Adler initially wore, and I’ve also posted an image of a plain star in ‘officers service dress bronze’, which implies that might have been the situation at the start in 1914 (the universal practice of bronze insignia for SD began in 1902), but of course it’s not completely impossible that someone clipped the crown off subsequently (although that seems less likely to me).

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE