Chaplains- uniforms and insignia

[scottmarchand]

I can add the few items I have in my collection relating to Great War Chaplins to the thread.  Unfortunately none of the items have any names but are otherwise really nice examples of what's been discussed above and shown in pictures. In 2 parst owing to image size limts

A Service dress jacket  to a capatin, nice purple shoulder board facings and a back patch in the center between the shoulder baldes. The helmet and the jacket are unassociated but displayed together. The helmet is a 62nd West Riding Division, 186th (2/2nd West Riding) Brigade Duke of Wellingtons’ Regiment Chaplains.

 

Edited 31 August , 2022 by scottmarchand

[scottmarchand]

The SD Jacket

Pt 3

[scottmarchand]

And a helmet cover - what is interesting is that the cross is to my eyes Masonic. But it seems plausible to me as so many clergy in this era were often part of masonic lodges like many other professionals in their communites. The interior is marked by the maker, Cordings & Sons. They are still in business and a very helpful clerk there confirmed from their records that it is their tailoers mark from the era and is noted in their archvies. She also noted that there were many clergy buying fowl weather gear for the fronth as clients in that era. The helmet is unassociated and I use it for display.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Very nice items Scott, thank you for posting the images.  It’s especially striking how different the purple facing is (more cerise than anything) compared with now.  I’m intrigued as to whether that’s due to the effects of ageing, storage and exposure to light.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[scottmarchand]

My pleasure - its nice to share with appreaicteive people. I expect its age as much as anything. Many of thes dyes, espcially in silks and other organic fabrics are not 'fast' and becoem fugitive, and lose their correct colours over time even if kept away from light. 

[AEF1918]

2 minutes ago, scottmarchand said:

My pleasure - its nice to share with appreaicteive people. I expect its age as much as anything. Many of thes dyes, espcially in silks and other organic fabrics are not 'fast' and becoem fugitive, and lose their correct colours over time even if kept away from light. 

Fantastic items. Thanks for sharing.

[AEF1918]

40 minutes ago, scottmarchand said:

And a helmet cover - what is interesting is that the cross is to my eyes Masonic. But it seems plausible to me as so many clergy in this era were often part of masonic lodges like many other professionals in their communites. The interior is marked by the maker, Cordings & Sons. They are still in business and a very helpful clerk there confirmed from their records that it is their tailoers mark from the era and is noted in their archvies. She also noted that there were many clergy buying fowl weather gear for the fronth as clients in that era. The helmet is unassociated and I use it for display.

 

It does appear to possibly be Masonic York Rite. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, scottmarchand said:

My pleasure - its nice to share with appreaicteive people. I expect its age as much as anything. Many of thes dyes, espcially in silks and other organic fabrics are not 'fast' and becoem fugitive, and lose their correct colours over time even if kept away from light. 

Yes it’s common for colour from those times especially to lose its constancy, not least because before the war we had relied almost wholly on Germany (especially Farben) for our colourfast dyes.

I was interested too to see the leather so-called ‘football’ buttons that I think became more and more popular for field service dress jackets.  Amazingly the outfitter Cordings (of Piccadilly) does still exist after almost going bust, but being saved by the pop star Eric Clapton.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

Scott,

Many thanks for those very interesting pictures from your collection

Do you perhaps know how common it was to have the cross displayed on the back of the jacket?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Scott,

Many thanks for those very interesting pictures from your collection

Do you perhaps know how common it was to have the cross displayed on the back of the jacket?

Yes it’s fascinating isn’t it Michael and not a feature of uniform that I’ve seen before on a padre.  It will no doubt be of interest to @poona guardtoo, as it’s clearly a battle patch of sorts.

Edited 1 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AEF1918]

Is there any data breakdown available  for details such as nationality (English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh) and denomination/ religion for chaplains who served? 

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, AEF1918 said:

Is there any data breakdown available  for details such as nationality (English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh) and denomination/ religion for chaplains who served? 

Some of the information you seek is available here:

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_I_chaplains

2. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/1950

3. https://royalarmychaplainsmuseum.business.site/?utm_source=gmb&utm_medium=referral

4. https://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/collegeofhumanities/history/researchcentres/centreformedicalhistory/pdfsanddocs/2_-_Army_Chaplains_and_Medical_Care_in_the_First_World_War.pdf

5. https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/2771

Edited 1 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

This table appears in 'The Cross on the Sword – Catholic Chaplains in the Forces' by Johnstone & Hagerty. The footnote ref gives it as originally from 'Statistics of the War Effort of the British Empire' (London, 1922) p. 190

Edited 1 September , 2022 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

I wonder if MEF should not in fact read EEF?  If not, then a curious omission as the EEF was larger and lasted longer

[scottmarchand]

I don't know how usual it was for a chaplain to have a back patch on the uniform. I do think that they made every effrot to be as conpsicuos as possible to the troops when rendering aid and comfort, and presumably to German snipers etc. who might hestiate to take out a member of the clergy.

I took a phot of the group on display th te IWM WW I gallery years ago. not the cap badge braized to the front along with the formation flash on the RH side of the helmet. I can't recall if the body armour was assocaite with the helmet or not.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, scottmarchand said:

I don't know how usual it was for a chaplain to have a back patch on the uniform. I do think that they made every effrot to be as conpsicuos as possible to the troops when rendering aid and comfort, and presumably to German snipers etc. who might hestiate to take out a member of the clergy.

I took a phot of the group on display th te IWM WW I gallery years ago. not the cap badge braized to the front along with the formation flash on the RH side of the helmet. I can't recall if the body armour was assocaite with the helmet or not.

 

Positioning a badge in the centre of the back was a peculiar feature of many formation and unit battle patches predominantly introduced in the year of the 1916 Somme battles.  The rationale for the padre is no different I think.

Extraordinary to see body armour whose principles of design haven’t changed hugely since then, but then again nor have the basic principles of the kinetic munitions it’s designed to protect against!

Edited 1 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

13 hours ago, michaeldr said:

This table appears in 'The Cross on the Sword – Catholic Chaplains in the Forces' by Johnstone & Hagerty. The footnote ref gives it as originally from 'Statistics of the War Effort of the British Empire' (London, 1922) p. 190

13 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I wonder if MEF should not in fact read EEF?  If not, then a curious omission as the EEF was larger and lasted longer

To clarify the above here is p.190 from the Stats. book - https://archive.org/details/statisticsofmili00grea/page/190/mode/1up?ref=ol&view=theater