German soldier papers, documents, photographs

[Professor Peter Stokes]

 

For some 45 years I have possessed a range of original papers, photos, documents belonging to a range of German WWI soldiers. As a teenage boy, I bought them from an antique shop when I used to collect military medals. I passed on the medal collection a long time ago and no longer collect but recently found these papers when sorting through the attic. I was wondering if members of the GWF could advise on the details of them or if you possibly know of a German counterpart GWF association who maintain and research records and may be able to assist?

My ultimate ambition is to be able to return the documents to some of the modern day relatives/families if there is any possibility of that. Thank you for any assistance and comment you may be able to provide.

I have uploaded a few of the documents but there is no space for more unfortunately.

Kind Regards, Peter

 

[GWF1967]

38 minutes ago, Professor Peter Stokes said:

 

For some 45 years I have possessed a range of original papers, photos, documents belonging to a range of German WWI soldiers. As a teenage boy, I bought them from an antique shop when I used to collect military medals. I passed on the medal collection a long time ago and no longer collect but recently found these papers when sorting through the attic. I was wondering if members of the GWF could advise on the details of them or if you possibly know of a German counterpart GWF association who maintain and research records and may be able to assist?

My ultimate ambition is to be able to return the documents to some of the modern day relatives/families if there is any possibility of that. Thank you for any assistance and comment you may be able to provide.

I have uploaded a few of the documents but there is no space for more unfortunately.

Kind Regards, Peter

 

@AOK4. @knittinganddeath  @bierast may be able to help. 

Edited 25 September , 2022 by GWF1967

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Professor Peter Stokes said:

 

For some 45 years I have possessed a range of original papers, photos, documents belonging to a range of German WWI soldiers. As a teenage boy, I bought them from an antique shop when I used to collect military medals. I passed on the medal collection a long time ago and no longer collect but recently found these papers when sorting through the attic. I was wondering if members of the GWF could advise on the details of them or if you possibly know of a German counterpart GWF association who maintain and research records and may be able to assist?

My ultimate ambition is to be able to return the documents to some of the modern day relatives/families if there is any possibility of that. Thank you for any assistance and comment you may be able to provide.

I have uploaded a few of the documents but there is no space for more unfortunately.

Kind Regards, Peter

 

Also @GreyC @JWKand @charlie2will I’m sure find the documents interesting and be able to advise. 

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[JWK]

Well. the documents certainly are interesting. And what a foresight to buy them 45 years ago!

Never seen an "Urlaubsschein" before.

Musketier Georg Rödel is off on a month's holiday to Oelsnitz in Vogtland, via borderpost Oderberg Austria (now Bohumin in the Czech Republic).

Could he be the Georg Karl Rödel taken POW at La Bassée on 9 april 1918?

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2539331/1/2/

If so, then maybe the local museum in Oelsnitz would be interested in the papers of Georg.

Tracking down descendants/family will be nigh impossible. Also: why did those papers end up in an antique shop?

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, JWK said:

Well. the documents certainly are interesting. And what a foresight to buy them 45 years ago!

Never seen an "Urlaubsschein" before.

Musketier Georg Rödel is off on a month's holiday to Oelsnitz in Vogtland, via borderpost Oderberg Austria (now Bohumin in the Czech Republic).

Could he be the Georg Karl Rödel taken POW at La Bassée on 9 april 1918?

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2539331/1/2/

If so, then maybe the local museum in Oelsnitz would be interested in the papers of Georg.

Tracking down descendants/family will be nigh impossible. Also: why did those papers end up in an antique shop?

 

 

 

 

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that the papers were taken from Georg when he was taken prisoner, for analysis by intelligence staff at a formation headquarters, and that they either stayed in the possession of the soldier who took them, or that some intelligence officer, or NCO, retained them (and probably the other documents the professor has) after they had been processed.  Perhaps they remained with the individual concerned and among his possessions even after the war.  Such things do happen and I’ve experienced them in even more modern times.  It seems like this time capsule of documents might prove to be a little treasure trove.  I hope that Professor Stokes will consider posting them for the interest of all of us if he does not mind taking the time to do that, perhaps one batch per day over a period to make it less onerous for him. 

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[depaor01]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I hope that Professor Stokes will consider posting them for the interest of all of us if he does not mind taking the time to do that, perhaps one batch per day over a period to make it less onerous for him. 

I wonder if a dedicated thread on the forum for Sütterlinschrift and Kurrent would be of benefit. I have a bundle of feldpostbrief cards from the same man but have been hesitant to bother the (very few, but very helpful!) German handwriting experts here. There are quite a few cards involved in my case.

Being able to compare the handwritten letter forms with the modern printed forms would be a handy reference tool for collectors of German documents.

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, depaor01 said:

I wonder if a dedicated thread on the forum for Sütterlinschrift and Kurrent would be of benefit. I have a bundle of feldpostbrief cards from the same man but have been hesitant to bother the (very few, but very helpful!) German handwriting experts here. There are quite a few cards involved in my case.

Being able to compare the handwritten letter forms with the modern printed forms would be a handy reference tool for collectors of German documents.

Dave

I suspect it might be quite popular if submitted a few at a time, Dave.  The Sutterlin experts such as @GreyC @knittinganddeath @charlie2and @AOK4are usually generous with their time and might find the text of interest. 

[depaor01]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I suspect it might be quite popular if submitted a few at a time, Dave.  The Sutterlin experts such as @GreyC @knittinganddeath @charlie2and @AOK4are usually generous with their time and might find the text of interest. 

Indeed. I'll follow this thread with interest. 

[charlie2]

I‘d just like to point out that WW1 period letters/postcards were not written using Sütterlin script. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin
Charlie

[depaor01]

52 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

I‘d just like to point out that WW1 period letters/postcards were not written using Sütterlin script. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin
Charlie

Learning already 

[bierast]

At least three - probably all four - of these items relate to II. Bataillon / Infanterie-Regiment Nr.360 of 4. Ersatz-Division. The good news is that IR 360 does have a published regimental history, the bad news is that it is not digitised. Unfortunately of its sister regiments within the division, only IR 359 has a published history (which is digitised), but it left 4.ED when the division was triangularised... which was prior to the period covered by these items.

Basic chronology and composition of the 4. Ersatz-Division: https://genwiki.genealogy.net/4._Ersatz-Infanterie-Division_(WK1)
Basic data on IR 360: https://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_360

What you have here, from top to bottom:

1. Standard issue field post letter (Feldpostbrief) form, addressed to the aforementioned Musketier Georg Rödel of the Nachrichtenmittelabteilung (signals equipment detachment) of II. Batl. / IR 360. I'm not sure about the extra text above his address, or the sender's address (written vertically at the side). The sender seems to be with exactly the same unit, but only identifies himself as 'MGR' - this has to be an abbreviation. Also Musketier Georg Rödel?  My brain hurts...
   The most interesting feature of this scan for me is the inkstamp from the Sturmabteilung / 40. Infanterie-Division, which I have never seen before. As some of you will know, 40.ID was Saxon - and was nowhere near IR 360 at the time indicated by the date stamp. In early September, 40.ID was holding a sector south of St. Quentin while 4.ED was in Galicia (Austrian Ukraine). I would surmise that Rödel had picked up a unit-stamped Feldpostbrief form much earlier somewhere else, but I can't find a convenient point of interaction between the two divisions.
2. Provisional Iron Cross 2nd Class award document for Otto Blume, 'previously' (früher) of 5. Kompagnie / IR 360 (this was a sub-unit of II. Bataillon). Presumably between the award date on 23rd May 1916 and the issuing of this document on 24th October 1916 Blume had been reassigned, or possibly invalided out. It is signed by the battalion commander of II./360, Hauptmann Freiherr von F... (I can't clearly decipher his full surname).
3. A photo of what could plausibly be members of IR 360, at some point before their Pickelhauben were replaced with steel helmets. The trees look consistent with the Eastern Front, but they had only been there since late May 1917... by which time they would surely have been issued with steel helmets.
4. As described above, an Urlaubsschein (leave pass) for Musketier Georg Rödel, authorising him to take home leave at Oelsnitz in Vogtland (Saxony) from the twenty-somethingth of September to the twentieth of October 1917. By this time the Russian summer offensive had been decisively defeated, the victorious Central Powers counteroffensive had run out of steam and the Eastern Front settled down - so an excellent time to offer home leave to the troops.

There are two entries for Rödel in the Verlustlisten of June and August 1918, first listing him as missing and then as captured. These are from the period when unit ID was no longer quoted (for security reasons), with birthdate (without year) and birthplace used instead to identify individuals. The birthday matches the POW document quoted by JWK (which ties him back to IR 360), and the birthplace is given as Oelsnitz / Ölsnitz. The second entry gives his birthplace as "Ölsnitz in Schlesien", which I'm fairly sure is a Prussian clerk's error (based on a combination of unfamiliarity with Saxony and confusion with Oels in Silesia). 

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4118488
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8751489

Scans of the backs of these documents would likely reveal more...

Edited 26 September , 2022 by bierast

[charlie2]

52 minutes ago, bierast said:

I'm not sure about the extra text

Rathovine?, Gertel Gutsbesitzerstochter - Gertel Rathovine, Manor owners daughter. A girlfriend?
Charlie

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, bierast said:

The trees look consistent with the Eastern Front

I don‘t think anything can be drawn from the trees - silver birch and spruce or fir - which can be found pretty much anywhere in northern (and eastern) europe.

Charlie

[AOK4]

52 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Rathovine?, Gertel Gutsbesitzerstochter - Gertel Rathovine, Manor owners daughter. A girlfriend?
Charlie

Katharina, that's the first name of Ms. or Mrs. Gertel, Gutsbesitzerstochter.

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, bierast said:

1. Standard issue field post letter (Feldpostbrief) form, addressed to the aforementioned Musketier Georg Rödel of the Nachrichtenmittelabteilung (signals equipment detachment) of II. Batl. / IR 360. I'm not sure about the extra text above his address, or the sender's address (written vertically at the side). The sender seems to be with exactly the same unit, but only identifies himself as 'MGR' - this has to be an abbreviation. Also Musketier Georg Rödel?  My brain hurts...
   The most interesting feature of this scan for me is the inkstamp from the Sturmabteilung / 40. Infanterie-Division, which I have never seen before. As some of you will know, 40.ID was Saxon - and was nowhere near IR 360 at the time indicated by the date stamp. In early September, 40.ID was holding a sector south of St. Quentin while 4.ED was in Galicia (Austrian Ukraine). I would surmise that Rödel had picked up a unit-stamped Feldpostbrief form much earlier somewhere else, but I can't find a convenient point of interaction between the two divisions.

 

Perhaps the stamp is from an Austr-Hungarian unit, Sturmabteilung/40. Infanterie-Division.

I'm not familiar with Austro-Hungarian units unfortunately.

 

Jan

[charlie2]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Katharina, that's the first name of Ms. or Mrs. Gertel, Gutsbesitzerstochter.

Thank you Jan

[AOK4]

3 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Thank you Jan

That should Katharine (with an "e" at the end). I had been typing a bit too fast.

[ANZAC_Andy]

Very interesting!

[charlie2]

10 hours ago, bierast said:

• but I can't find a convenient point of interaction between the two divisions.
•  

 

8 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Perhaps the stamp is from an Austr-Hungarian unit, Sturmabteilung/40. Infanterie-Division.

I'm not familiar with Austro-Hungarian units unfortunately.

 

Jan

Jan has provided the most likely answer. The Austro-Hungarian Official History, Vol 6 page 723, records that the 4. Ersatz Division took over the line to the north of the 40. Honved Infanterie Division about the middle of September.

Charlie

[bierast]

3 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Jan has provided the most likely answer. The Austro-Hungarian Official History, Vol 6 page 723, records that the 4. Ersatz Division took over the line to the north of the 40. Honved Infanterie Division about the middle of September.

That does seem to make sense, though the very German style of the stamp (on a standard German Feldpostbrief form) makes it highly counterintuitive! I will privately consult some collector friends who know more about k.u.k. matters than I do.

[GreyC]

18 hours ago, bierast said:

the very German style of the stamp (on a standard German Feldpostbrief form) makes it highly counterintuitive!

Sometimes the mail was not handed in to the fieldpost-office that was officially appropriate, but to one closest by at the moment the letter/card was written. Sometimes on the march or on the way home during leave etc. As in some parts of the frontline German and Austrian units cooperated closely it is well possible. But it is indeed counterintuitive.

It would be helpful to have a scan of the reverse of the Feldpost card.

GreyC

Edited 27 September , 2022 by GreyC

[GreyC]

On 26/09/2022 at 02:29, bierast said:

Standard issue field post letter (Feldpostbrief) form, addressed to the aforementioned Musketier Georg Rödel of the Nachrichtenmittelabteilung (signals equipment detachment) of II. Batl. / IR 360. I'm not sure about the extra text above his address, or the sender's address (written vertically at the side). The sender seems to be with exactly the same unit, but only identifies himself as 'MGR' - this has to be an abbreviation. Also Musketier Georg Rödel?  My brain hurts...

It is indeed puzzling. I´d agree with Bierast that the original aqddressee was Georg Rödel, who does seem identical with the sender. At least both addresses are identical. The bit Bierast has difficult to decipher on the address above Musketier Georg Rödel reads Katharine Rödel Gutsbesitzertochter. So she must be a relative. Gutsbesitzertochter means Estate owner´s daughter. So they were owning a considerable piece of land in the country. She can´t be the addressee as she was probably not at the front. As I wrote before: the scan of the reverse  would be nice to have.

GreyC

PS: There were a few Rödel Gutsbesitzer in Oberfranken.

Edited 27 September , 2022 by GreyC

[JWK]

The fieldpost stamp looks to be German?

Stamp on the card in question:

A better view (on a different card)

 

 

[bierast]

I haven't got a definite answer from my friends re. what a k.u. Honved assault detachment stamp should look like, but one obvious objection occurred to me... surely the unit designation should be in Hungarian (the official language of command in the Honved) rather than German?

One of my friends suggests that someone may have added this stamp post-war to increase the value of the lot - I think the fact that it's an assault unit (even if not one of the hyper-collectable Sturmbataillonen) triggered this suspicion on his part.

[GreyC]

It is definitely.

However, Austrian troops were at times under German command and vice versa. And even if it is not the case here, they cooperated closely.

GreyC