charlie2 Posted 27 September , 2022 Share Posted 27 September , 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JWK said: Why did Georg (if he was the one taken POW) had papers of two of his army-buddies with him? I suspect they were not with Georg but taken from the wounded/dead and passed to a British Intelligence Officer. Edited 27 September , 2022 by charlie2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 September , 2022 Share Posted 27 September , 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, charlie2 said: I suspect they were not with Georg but taken from the wounded/dead and passed to a British Intelligence Officer. Agreed. I was just about to say the same thing. I think it might well be a former Intelligence Officer who kept all these documents after the war. The sheer diversity of them supports that. Edited 27 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Peter Stokes Posted 27 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2022 10 minutes ago, charlie2 said: All were from IR 360 Otto Blume presumably died of wounds in a British hospital, he is buried in Etaples military cemetery https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/6000870/otto-blume/ These are all remarkable details you are all discovering - many thanks indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 27 September , 2022 Share Posted 27 September , 2022 Thankyou for sharing, Professor Stokes! This scan is evidently the other side of the Feldpostbrief form with the 'Sturmabt. 40. Inf. Div.' stamp which provoked so much debate. All is now clear... this was posted to Georg Rödel by one Soldat Max Wolf, who identifies himself clearly as a member of the aforementioned Saxon divisional assault detachment. Since it was only a company-sized formation, he does not include any sub-unit in his address. The rest of the text consists of what I suspect to be a short greeting (which I cannot decipher) and the names and addresses of two other men, also serving with Saxon units - 5. Komp. / IR 181 (also part of 40. Inf. Div.) and 6. Komp. / IR 178 (123. Inf. Div.). I suspect the purpose of this card may have been simply to pass on the current addresses of these friends to Georg. As we know Georg himself was born in the Kingdom of Saxony and still had family there (since he went on home leave to his birthplace, Oelsnitz in the Vogtland). How he came to be serving in the Prussian Army is anyone's guess - according to the P.O.W. document posted earlier he was only 17 when the war started, so it's not simply a matter of having been living outside the kingdom pre-war, fulfilling the military service obligation with the Prussian Army and being on their books as a reservist. Perhaps the answer lies in his skillset - he is identified as a telephonist ('Fernsprecher') on one of the other documents and was a member of the Nachrichtenmittel-Abteilung ('signals equipment detachment') of his battalion. The 4. Ersatz-Division (as its name suggests) was originally a provisional formation and went into the field devoid of much of the higher organisation, materiel and specialist personnel of a regular division. This was rectified in the field in Flanders during 1915, when e.g. its motley collection of provisional Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillonen were formed into proper numbered regiments. Perhaps it received some personnel and materiel donations from other formations of the 4. Armee, including the Saxon / Württemberg XXVII. Reservekorps? If this were the case however, I would have expected the Saxon War Ministry to attempt to 'reclaim' him by the end of 1917 or so... curious indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 27 September , 2022 Share Posted 27 September , 2022 2 hours ago, charlie2 said: Uffz. Karl Strahl 9./IR 360 went missing near La Bassee on 09.04.1918, he is not recorded as a PoW and has no known grave. The document with his name on ('Personal-Ausweis') is a personal ID of unclear function, given the standard issue of the much more detailed Militärpass and Soldbuch. Possibly this was for use when the full documents were not being carried to avoid risk of capture by the enemy? The reverse consists of a simple physical description of the passholder. The same information would be in the aforementioned full ID documents, at least if filled in correctly - not always the case in practice going by surviving examples. As this suggests, photo ID was certainly not the norm - however we do include one example of its use in our first book Fighting the Kaiser's War, on a Verkehrsschein (travel permit) issued to a French civilian living at Lambresart within the operational area of XIX.AK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 27 September , 2022 Share Posted 27 September , 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, bierast said: This scan is evidently the other side of the Feldpostbrief form with the 'Sturmabt. 40. Inf. Div.' It is a possibility but to me not as evident as you think it is. After all, there was an address AND a sendersname on the other side. And it said FeldpostBRIEF not FeldpostKARTE on it. It would have been helpful, if ther new scans had a refrence to the old scans or were scanned systematically so as to make clear what belongs to what. GreyC Edited 27 September , 2022 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 28 September , 2022 Share Posted 28 September , 2022 (edited) 22 hours ago, GreyC said: It is a possibility but to me not as evident as you think it is. After all, there was an address AND a sendersname on the other side. And it said FeldpostBRIEF not FeldpostKARTE on it. It would have been helpful, if ther new scans had a refrence to the old scans or were scanned systematically so as to make clear what belongs to what. Good point... I believe it may well be a variation on the folding Feldpostbrief form shown below - note the perforations around three edges (less pronounced on the Professor's one, but still discernible). This example from my collection is opened out to show both the 'front' and the 'back' - there is a letter written on the other side (the inside when folded). When purchased / issued there would be an additional band of paper all the way around the edges, with glue on the back as per a postage stamp. You would lick or otherwise moisten this to seal the letter for postage, then the recipient would tear along the perforations to open it. If I'm right, there should be a letter from the Saxon stormtrooper written on the inside of the Professor's example... it should be noted though that if this is indeed correct, then the Professor's one has been filled out in a very irregular manner (additional 'sender' addresses on the back and a double address on the front). Edited 28 September , 2022 by bierast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 28 September , 2022 Share Posted 28 September , 2022 10 hours ago, bierast said: then the Professor's one has been filled out in a very irregular manner (additional 'sender' addresses on the back and a double address on the front). Well possible. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 Anyone else want to have a try at the addressee‘s name on the blood stained postcard. I think it is either Peter Liß or Biß, 8 Komp Inf….. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 Hi, I think it is Peter Sza... Wetten is part of Kevelaer today. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 4 minutes ago, GreyC said: Hi, I think it is Peter Sza... Wetten is part of Kevelaer today. GreyC I don't dare to say anything for certain about the name, but with 3 letters the most probable name would be Ley. The last word is definitely Westen and not Wetten. Sza is not a name, nor does any last name in the Verlustlisten have three letters with a "z" in the middle. Weird that the address (unit) seems incomplete but the letter seems to have been posted without problems anyway (lack of stamps indicated a faulty or incomplete address). Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 On 27/09/2022 at 21:57, JWK said: Georg Rödel and Karl Strahl are both on the Verlustliste (Casualtylist) nr 1939 Georg: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4118488 Karl: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8180650 Otto Blume (the one who got the EKII) is on list nr 1938 http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8189200 Just a small correction: the Ausgabe (edition) is not the same as the Verlustliste (casualty list), a Ausgabe could contain several lists (of different states) and a list could be published in several Ausgaben: Rödel and Strahl are in Ausgabe 1939, but preußische Verlustliste 1157 (it's important to also note the state that issued the list), while Blume is in Ausgabe 1938 and also preußische Verlustliste 1157. The Ausgabe indicates the newspaper volume (which contained a limited amount of pages, so more pages would need a new volume). So it is very interesting that all three are mentioned in the same Verlustliste, indicating that whatever happened to them, very probably happened around the same time (as they belonged to the same regiment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 22 minutes ago, AOK4 said: Weird that the address (unit) seems incomplete but the letter seems to have been posted without problems anyway (lack of stamps indicated a faulty or incomplete address). Indeed, most peculiar - since it's written in pencil, I suppose the unit number could have been erased after receipt as a security measure, but that's not something I've ever seen done. Most regrettably the stamp from the sender's unit is also less than completely legible, but we can at least see that it is a Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment... so the unit in the photo on the other side is almost certainly not IR 360. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 (edited) Westen is well possible and makes sense. Ley is out of the question for me. Sza may only be part of a name, the rest illegible/erased. That´s why I wrote Sza ... Could be Szabo or the like. Doesn´t even have to be Sza. It is not Ley, as far as I can make it out. GreyC Edited 29 September , 2022 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 29 September , 2022 Share Posted 29 September , 2022 1 minute ago, GreyC said: Westen is well possible and makes sense. Ley is out of the question for me. GreyC The middle letter doesn't look like an "e" indeed, yet I wouldn't completely discard the possibility. "L" and "y" seem very well possible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) From the Regimental History of IR 360, the date the letter was posted to Georg Rödel Edited 30 September , 2022 by charlie2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) And the day he was captured with No.9 Company Edited 30 September , 2022 by charlie2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, charlie2 said: And the day he was captured with No.9 Company An excellent addition... this reveals the name and fate of the battalion commander (of II./360) who signed the EK2 award document for Gefr. d. R. Blume, as Hauptmann Kurt Freiherr von Forstner. The Ranglisten reveal that he was a pre-war active officer with IR 20 (Wittenberg).http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8154608 The adjutant of II./360 who signed Georg's Urlaubsschein is also identified as Leutnant der Landwehr Heine... the signature clearly matches. I couldn't find his Verlustliste entry as it's from the period when unit IDs were concealed for security reasons, and the poor man's surname was a very common one. Edited 30 September , 2022 by bierast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 40 minutes ago, bierast said: Leutnant der Landwehr Heine. The Roll of Honour records that he died 09.04.1918, unfortunately his forename isn‘t recorded. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 There's a Heinrich Heine, Leutnant der Landwehr, from Heddinghausen, Brilon in the Verlustliste of 7 June 1918. There are two earlier mentions of a Heinrich Heine from Heddinghausen, Brilon, Vizefeldwebel in IR360 http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8157918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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