C Coy Pay Desk 7th Bedford's

[Raster Scanning]

7th Bedford's, C Coy pay table, Mandora Barracks, Aldershot November 1914. QMS Pomfret, Major Digby and L/Cpl. 15374, Henry James  Gilham. Digby had emigrated to Australia from Ireland some years before WW1. He was travelling back to Ireland after the death of his sister when war was declared. He volunteered and was posted to the newly formed 7th Bedfordshire Regiment. He spent the war in the UK on recruiting and training duty. Gilham rose to become CQMS and died of wounds 17-8-1917. Pomfret does not appear to have joined the battalion on active service.

Edited 28 September , 2022 by Raster Scanning

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Raster Scanning said:

7th Bedford's, C Coy pay table, Mandora Barracks, Aldershot November 1914. QMS Pomfret, Major Digby and L/Cpl. 15374, Henry James  Gilham. Digby had emigrated to Australia from Ireland some years before WW1. He was travelling back to Ireland after the death of his sister when war was declared. He volunteered and was posted to the newly formed 7th Bedfordshire Regiment. He spent the war in the UK on recruiting and training duty. Gilham rose to become CQMS and died of wounds 17-8-1917. Pomfret does not appear to have joined the battalion on active service.

Those are interesting captions, as they imply that 7th Bedfordshire’s might have adopted the 4-company organisation quite early on (many TF units did not do so until 1915.  I say this because with the 8-company organisation there were no QMS in the companies, just a colour sergeant for each with a badge of rank of 3-stripes surmounted by a crown (plus crossed union flags when in full dress).  
When the 4-company organisation was adopted the old companies paired and of the two colour sergeants one became company sergeant major and the other (more junior) the company-quarter-master-sergeant (with responsibility for pay and stores).  This latter seems to be what is portrayed in your photo, so I’m assuming companies A to D rather than A to F.  Both CSM and CQMS appointments retained identical badges of rank as colour sergeants until the introduction of warrant officer second class was introduced for the CSM (and others in the Summer of 1915.

Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Raster Scanning]

Hi Thanks for the reply.

The 7th Bedfords were a K2 Service Battalion formed from overspill of men from the 6th Battalion (K1) with a cadre of 3rd Battalion old soldiers.

They were a 4 Company unit from day one as far as I was aware.

I have a photo of the Sgt's Mess in January 1915 and it lists the following senior Sgts. (as well as all the other Sgts.)

RSM Herbert

CSM Amos

CSM Higdon

CSM Simmonds

CSM Pearce

CSM Munt

CSM Taylor-Vinson

CSM Pope

CSM Thomas

QMS Griffiths

CQMS Gilham (this is the same man as in the above picture, so a rapid promotion)

CQMS Miles

CQMS Bryne Junior

CQMS Byrne Senior

CQMS Kerrison

CQMS Howell

CS Staughton

CS Selman

SM Instructor Butler

Sgt Drummer Antcliffe

Pioneer Sgt Tew

S-Mr Taylor Drury (Sgt Major, Taylor)

1 RSM, 8 CSM's, 6 CQMS's, 2 CS, 1 SM Instructor, 1 Sgt Drummer, 1 Pioneer Sgt. 1 S-Mr. Taylor.

So now I am totally confused

 

 

Edited 28 September , 2022 by Raster Scanning

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Raster Scanning said:

Hi Thanks for the reply.

The 7th Bedfords were a K2 Service Battalion formed from overspill of men from the 6th Battalion (K1) with a cadre of 3rd Battalion old soldiers.

They were a 4 Company unit from day one as far as I was aware.

I have a photo of the Sgt's Mess in January 1915 and it lists the following senior Sgts. (as well as all the other Sgts.)

RSM Herbert

CSM Amos

CSM Higdon

CSM Simmonds

CSM Pearce

CSM Munt

CSM Taylor-Vinson

CSM Pope

CSM Thomas

QMS Griffiths

CQMS Gilham (this is the same man as in the above picture, so a rapid promotion)

CQMS Miles

CQMS Bryne Junior

CQMS Byrne Senior

CQMS Kerrison

CQMS Howell

CS Staughton

CS Selman

SM Instructor Butler

Sgt Drummer Antcliffe

Pioneer Sgt Tew

S-Mr Taylor Drury (Sgt Major, Taylor)

1 RSM, 8 CSM's, 6 CQMS's, 2 CS, 1 SM Instructor, 1 Sgt Drummer, 1 Pioneer Sgt. 1 S-Mr. Taylor.

So now I am totally confused

 

 

I should have realised that the 7th Bedfordshire were a service battalion, the 1914 date on the photo threw me into an assumption, which one should never make, as some service battalions did begin recruiting then (K1).

The 1915 (and subsequent) tinkering with the NCO ranks did cause some confusion at the time so you are in good company.  Before 1915 the most senior rank in a company was a colour sergeant and there was only one type (class) of warrant officer, all of whom were employed in the battalion headquarters.

When the 4-company organisation was adopted the colour sergeant rank initially remained and each man was simply ‘appointed’ as either CSM or CQMS (with seniority taken into account).  In essence it was mirror imaging at company level the structure in the battalion HQ.

This was something entirely familiar in the Royal Artillery who had been doing it for decades, and the cavalry (adopted around 1899).  In 1915 things changed across the Army when CSM and those decreed of equivalent status (such as the RQMS in battalion HQ) all became WOs of the new 2nd Class.  The CQMS remained ranked as colour sergeants, but appointed and known as CQMS (the company Q man).

Other Colour Sergeants without special appointments were simply addressed as Colour Sergeant.  That all applies to your battalion ORBAT as laid out prior to 1915.  The changes to WOII would have come from the Summer 1915.  I hope it makes sense now, but let me know if there’s anything unclear.  The general rule was, if a man had an appointment and a rank, then you addressed him and annotated him by his appointment, which took precedence.  Ergo -RSM - not warrant officer, etc. etc.

Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Raster Scanning]

Thanks very much for this explanation. It is clear. I have one further question.

There is a CSM Taylor-Vinson. He is Tom Taylor-Vinson, a reasonably popular West End actor.

I was thrown for a while when I came to  

S.-Mr.- Taylor Drury. (exactly as written)

Do you think it is Sgt Major Dury who is the Battalion Taylor? or Sgt Mister Taylor- Drury (double barrelled name) /

I think the former but for years I believed it was the latter.

[Raster Scanning]

2 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thanks very much for this explanation. It is clear. I have one further question.

There is a CSM Taylor-Vinson. He is Tom Taylor-Vinson, a reasonably popular West End actor.

I was thrown for a while when I came to  

S.-Mr.- Taylor Drury. (exactly as written)

Do you think it is Sgt Major Dury who is the Battalion Taylor? or Sgt Mister Taylor- Drury (double barrelled name) /

I think the former but for years I believed it was the latter.

I know that the battalion had company Taylors so I guess a Sgt Major Taylor was needed.

 

[Raster Scanning]

I have a couple of questions regarding these 7th Bedford men and their badges. These were taken in early January 1915 in the group photo mentioned above.

The first is Pioneer Sgt Tew. I see he has the crossed axes above his stripes on his right sleeve. I presume he was attached to HQ? with 10 men attached to him.

The second is SM Instructor Butler who appears to have crossed rifles and a crown as a cap badge. Can someone advise if this was normal or an affectation, I note that some others on this picture have no cap badges so I assume they were in short supply.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thanks very much for this explanation. It is clear. I have one further question.

There is a CSM Taylor-Vinson. He is Tom Taylor-Vinson, a reasonably popular West End actor.

I was thrown for a while when I came to  

S.-Mr.- Taylor Drury. (exactly as written)

Do you think it is Sgt Major Dury who is the Battalion Taylor? or Sgt Mister Taylor- Drury (double barrelled name) /

I think the former but for years I believed it was the latter.

Each prewar regular infantry battalion had a tailor on its establishment whose rank was sergeant.  He was referred to as the master tailor, or in full, sergeant master tailor.  He was a sergeant on the battalion’s HQ staff (and so generically a staff sergeant) and headed up a small team of tailors.  Was ‘Taylor’ an alternative spelling for tailor at that time?  As the actor was known to have a hyphenated name, which you have said was annotated correctly, then I should think that would be consistently applied for any other men whose surnames were similarly rendered.  I don’t think that tailors remained a requirement throughout the war so the establishment might well have changed subsequently to remove them, especially for war-raised Service battalions.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

I have a couple of questions regarding these 7th Bedford men and their badges. These were taken in early January 1915 in the group photo mentioned above.

The first is Pioneer Sgt Tew. I see he has the crossed axes above his stripes on his right sleeve. I presume he was attached to HQ? with 10 men attached to him.

The second is SM Instructor Butler who appears to have crossed rifles and a crown as a cap badge. Can someone advise if this was normal or an affectation, I note that some others on this picture have no cap badges so I assume they were in short supply.

Your assumption regarding the pioneer sergeant is correct.  His place was on the battalion HQ staff (so again, generically a staff sergeant).  On paper his men were divided among the companies, where in absolute extremis they would join the firing line and fight.  On day-to-day routine duties though they joined their sergeant and carried out duties as directed by their role’s supervisor and superior officer, the quarter-master.

Similarly each battalion was established for a ‘colour sergeant instructor of musketry’, whose badge of rank, to be worn on both upper arms, was a crown surmounting crossed rifles over 3-stripes.  For the army as a whole the corps responsible for musketry training was the ‘School of Musketry’, whose principal establishment was at Hythe in Kent, with an outstation at Bisley and, over the course of the war, additional schools within each regional administrative ‘command’.  The cap insignia of its staff, whose minimum rank was sergeant, was a gilding metal crown surmounted by a conjoined pair of crossed rifles.  For a battalion first forming up it’s possible that an instructor from the school was attached to fulfil the necessary role.  Your man appears to be a sergeant major instructor and so one step above colour sergeant. 

Edited 29 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Raster Scanning]

2 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

I know that the battalion had company Taylors so I guess a Sgt Major Taylor was needed.

 

 

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Each prewar regular infantry battalion had a tailor on its establishment whose rank was sergeant.  He was referred to as the master tailor, or in full, sergeant master tailor.  He was a sergeant on the battalion’s HQ staff (and so generically a staff sergeant).  Was ‘Taylor’ an alternative spelling for tailor at that time?  As the actor was known to have a hyphenated name, which you have said was annotated correctly, then I should think that would be consistently applied for any other men whose surnames were similarly rendered.

OK I went back to the primary source and I realise I made a mistake. He is listed as Tailor not Taylor so that makes it much clearer.

So it is written as 

S.-Mr.- Tailor Drury.

Given your explanation it must be an abbreviation of Sergeant Master Tailor, Drury. 

That is perfect, thanks for your help.

[Raster Scanning]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Your assumption regarding the pioneer sergeant is correct.  His place was on the battalion HQ staff (so again, generically a staff sergeant).  On paper his men were divided among the companies, where in absolute extremis they would join the firing line and fight.  On day-to-day routine duties though they joined their sergeant and carried out duties as directed by their role’s supervisor and superior officer, the quarter-master.

Similarly each battalion was established for a ‘colour sergeant instructor in musketry’, whose badge of rank, to be worn on both upper arms, was a crown surmounting crossed rifles over 3-stripes.  For the army as a whole the corps responsible for musketry training was the ‘School of Musketry’, whose principal establishment was at Hythe in Kent, with an outstation at Bisley and over the course of the war additional schools within each regional administrative ‘command’.  The cap insignia of its staff, whose minimum rank was sergeant, was a gilding metal crown surmounted by a conjoined pair of crossed rifles.  For a battalion first forming up it’s possible that an instructor from the school was attached to fulfil the necessary role.  Your man appears to be a sergeant major instructor and so one step above colour sergeant. 

Thank you I have learned a great deal. This is very useful.

 

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Raster Scanning said:

 

S.-Mr.- Tailor Drury.

Given your explanation it must be an abbreviation of Sergeant Master Tailor, Drury. 

That is perfect, thanks for your help.

Yes that’s correct.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thank you I have learned a great deal. This is very useful.

 

There is one odd aspect, in that the Musketry Instructor has fashioned his own cap insignia by utilising separate crown, and crossed rifles arm badges.  I have seen this once before when the permanent staff instructor (PSI) at a public school (fee paying college) had done exactly the same thing.  It wasn’t an officially permitted procedure and throws into question whether he is indeed a bona fides School of Musketry Instructor, or a reservist of some kind, appointed as the battalion’s instructor, who has them made up his own badge rather than wearing the regimental insignia that would have been correct.  If it’s possible to investigate his service record (it might well be among those destroyed) then the truth can be discovered.

NB.  It’s possible that there was a shortage of cap badges (it was a very small corps before the war and expanded significantly during the duration) so it’s not entirely improbable that utilising makeshift badges might have been endorsed officially.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Raster Scanning]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is one odd aspect, in that the Musketry Instructor has fashioned his own cap insignia by utilising separate crown, and crossed rifles arm badges.  I have seen this once before when the permanent staff instructor (PSI) at a public school (fee paying college) had done exactly the same thing.  It wasn’t an officially permitted procedure and throws into question whether he is indeed a bona fides School of Musketry Instructor, or a reservist of some kind, appointed as the battalion’s instructor, who has them made up his own badge rather than wearing the regimental insignia that would have been correct.  If it’s possible to investigate his service record (it might well be among those destroyed) then the truth can be discovered. 

There is a James Edward Butler but his record just shows he spent the war at home and was discharged in 1918 with a SWB. I did see after a Google for exactly the reason you mention that there is an illustration of a dual construction badge like his.https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/school-of-musketry-cap-badge---dual-construction-3.html

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Raster Scanning said:

There is a James Edward Butler but his record just shows he spent the war at home and was discharged in 1918 with a SWB. I did see after a Google for exactly the reason you mention that there is an illustration of a dual construction badge like his.https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/school-of-musketry-cap-badge---dual-construction-3.html

It’s clear from the photo[s] that we’ve discussed that dual construction badges were utilised.  The aspect that I’d like ideally to clarify is whether he was officially endorsed as a wartime addition to the School of Musketry (a discrete corps in its own right), or whether he was actually enlisted by the Bedfordshire Regiment and by sleight of hand then wearing cap insignia to which he was not entitled.  I imagine that the SofM did take on some reservist, prewar regimental musketry instructors, if they had the right background (there was a shortage), but only James Edward Butler’s service record would give us a definitive answer.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE