Lieut. Col. John Davie Scott - award for bravery. What did he do?

[depaor01]

Hi all,

Our library has been donated an archive relating to a now-disappeared big house called Woodville in Lucan, Dublin. Among the papers are several items of military interest that I'd like more info on so as to aid in cataloguing.

The archive relates to the Scott family - particularly Lt. Col. Hopton B. Scott and I'll be posting about him in due course. This particular query is about his son, Lieut Col. John Davie Scott who was awarded the Irish Brigade bravery certificate. I'm not seeing anything in the war diaries mentioning him - or indeed any serious action on the date mentioned on the certificate. The award and war diary are below.

Thanks in anticipation for anything at all!

Dave

 

 

 

Edited 28 September , 2022 by depaor01
title

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Hi all,

Our library has been donated an archive relating to a now-disappeared big house called Woodville in Lucan, Dublin. Among the papers are several items of military interest that I'd like more info on so as to aid in cataloguing.

The archive relates to the Scott family - particularly Lt. Col. Hopton B. Scott and I'll be posting about him in due course. This particular query is about his son, Lieut Col. John Davie Scott who was awarded the Irish Brigade bravery certificate. I'm not seeing anything in the war diaries mentioning him - or indeed any serious action on the date mentioned on the certificate. The award and war diary are below.

Thanks in anticipation for anything at all!

Dave

 

 

 

Check out the Brigade War Diary itself Dave.  Had the award been related to his actions whilst at regimental duty then the Regimental Commander option on the certificate shouldn’t ordinarily be crossed out.  Reading between the lines perhaps he was a staff officer to the Brigade Commander in the HQ.  Ordinarily the senior staff officer was the Brigade Major (either a senior captain or major), but if their was a surplus Lt Col then he might temporarily fill the appointment.  It’s worth checking out.

NB.  Alternatively, do you know if Lt Col JD Scott was commanding 2nd Royal Irish Regiment at the time?

Afternote:  Apparently he did command and was Killed in Action whilst still the commanding officer of the 2nd battalion Royal Irish Regiment, on the first day of the so-called German "Spring Offensive".  At Ronssoy, the Somme, France. 21st MARCH 1918. 

Source :7050302Source  :9501186

BURIALUnicorn Cemetery, Vendhuile

CWGCCemetery/MemorialAisneFranceSource:7050302

He is seen in the middle row below seated at far left whilst serving with the 1st Battalion in India prewar.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/240016-1st-battalion-royal-irish-regiment/  I wonder if @mrfrankcan help with your query.

 

Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

He got the DSO - LG 1 Jan 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/25

[Ivor Anderson]

May be a mention in the 16th (Irish) Division's A&QMG war diary: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053695

EDIT: No awards or names mentioned.

Edited 28 September , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

He got the DSO - LG 1 Jan 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/25

That might well be directly associated with the November 17th 1917 certificate then, given the close interval with the London Gazette citation.  As you will know Ivor, DSOs were only sparingly used for gallantry, early on, and afterwards became much more associated with acts of leadership, often over a period of time.  Sight of the write up might well clarify things with regards to the date, etc.

It looks to me like it’s very likely to be specifically associated with the action at ‘Tunnel Trench’ on that same date.  Seeing the ‘narrative’ appendix to the war diary (mentioned) would help.

Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

He was mentioned in dispatches according to his medal index card and the medal roll.

TR

Edited 28 September , 2022 by Terry_Reeves

[FROGSMILE]

There is a quite excellent account of the Tunnel Trench attack and consolidation here: https://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/battaliions/10-batt/campaigns/1917-cambrai.html

The 16th Irish Division covered themselves with glory on that and immediately subsequent day[s] of hard, brutal fighting.  6th Connaught Rangers in particular suffered heavily, as did the German units tussling with them hand-to-hand.  Little quarter was given. 

 

Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[depaor01]

Wow. Lots to digest there!

Thanks for all this.

Much obliged.

Dave

[depaor01]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Check out the Brigade War Diary itself Dave.  Had the award been related to his actions whilst at regimental duty then the Regimental Commander option on the certificate shouldn’t ordinarily be crossed out.  Reading between the lines perhaps he was a staff officer to the Brigade Commander in the HQ.  Ordinarily the senior staff officer was the Brigade Major (either a senior captain or major), but if their was a surplus Lt Col then he might temporarily fill the appointment.  It’s worth checking out.

NB.  Alternatively, do you know if Lt Col JD Scott was commanding 2nd Royal Irish Regiment at the time?

Afternote:  Apparently he did command and was Killed in Action whilst still the commanding officer of the 2nd battalion Royal Irish Regiment, on the first day of the so-called German "Spring Offensive".  At Ronssoy, the Somme, France. 21st MARCH 1918. 

Source :7050302Source  :9501186

BURIALUnicorn Cemetery, Vendhuile

CWGCCemetery/MemorialAisneFranceSource:7050302

He is seen in the middle row below seated at far left whilst serving with the 1st Battalion in India prewar.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/240016-1st-battalion-royal-irish-regiment/  I wonder if @mrfrankcan help with your query.

 

I didn't see your afternote. Thanks for that Frogsmile. Looking forward to digging through the archive. Lots of military goodies distributed among 18 boxes!

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

I didn't see your afternote. Thanks for that Frogsmile. Looking forward to digging through the archive. Lots of military goodies distributed among 18 boxes!

The archive sounds fascinating and I am quite envious.  Please don’t hesitate to post anything you think might be interesting, if that’s acceptable. 

[depaor01]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

The archive sounds fascinating and I am quite envious.  Please don’t hesitate to post anything you think might be interesting, if that’s acceptable. 

Very acceptable! Letters and photos mostly.  You 'orrible lot are my only hope to make sense of it all 

Stand by...

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Very acceptable! Letters and photos mostly.  You 'orrible lot are my only hope to make sense of it all 

Stand by...

Looking forward to it! 👍

[david murdoch]

The Irish Memorial Records give him as 5th Battalion attached 2nd. From the Army List his rank was Captain and in 1917 Acting Major from May 1917 (possibly assuming command of a company) - then presumably Acting Lt. Colonel which would correspond with taking over the battalion.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

His CWGC entry burial report also notes 5th Battalion attached 2nd. It also shows he was a reburial and the concentration report shows a map reference to where his battlefield grave was located. The Captain B C J Cunningham noted killed the same day and buried at the same place was 7th Battalion attached 2nd .  Temporary Captain Bernard Camelis Josh Cunningham

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

the concentration report shows a map reference to where his battlefield grave was located

[Ivor Anderson]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

The Irish Memorial Records give him as 5th Battalion attached 2nd. From the Army List his rank was Captain and in 1917 Acting Major from May 1917 (possibly assuming command of a company) - then presumably Acting Lt. Colonel which would correspond with taking over the battalion.

His 'New Year's Honours' DSO may have been connected with him acting up - officially acting Major at the time of recommendation.

NB he was acting Lt. Col. at the time of issue of the gallantry certificate re 20 Nov 1917. It was his (49th) Brigade commander who reported his gallantry on that date.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The Battalion CO in July 1917 was Lt. Col. H. G. Gregorie. By August 1917 it was Lt. Col. J. D. Scott who signed the war diary.

LG 12 Oct 1917 records the change: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30333/supplement/10551

War diary 10th August 1917:

He then had to command during the Battle of Langemark on 16 August 1917.

He was in command of the 2nd RIR Bn. on 20 Nov 1917, the day his gallantry cert. was issued for, based on the report of the 49th Brigade Commander.

He must have been in action directing the  attack - near Croisilles, during Battle of Cambrai?

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

This list of awards in the Jan WD must have been for the Battle of Cambrai on 20 Nov 1917 - note 'parchment certificates' mentioned:

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

He last signed the WD on 3 March 1918. He is last mentioned in the WD at 9.30am on 21 March 1918, directing the defence. Then on the list of casualties for that day.

He was the only officer listed as confirmed 'Killed in Action'. There is a long list of those missing:

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[depaor01]

Outstanding! That is amazing info.

Thanks again. His story will be told.

[depaor01]

Well this archive is slowly giving up its secrets...

Scott's DSO parchment (is that the King's actual signature, or was it  - to quote Roger Waters - "signed with his own rubber stamp"?)

 

Letter of congratulation, presumably to John Davie Scott from WB Hickie.

 

Pictured in St. Columba's Roll of Honour

 

Edited 4 October , 2022 by depaor01

[depaor01]

On 28/09/2022 at 13:46, Ivor Anderson said:

He got the DSO - LG 1 Jan 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/25

Just revisiting this thread as I'm archiving Lt. Col. Scott's letters home. I've just noticed the annotation "one emblem" under the MIC entry for the 15 star. Is this an error? I know of no emblems used with the 1914/15 star.

Thanks,

Dave

[Terry_Reeves]

22 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Just revisiting this thread as I'm archiving Lt. Col. Scott's letters home. I've just noticed the annotation "one emblem" under the MIC entry for the 15 star. Is this an error? I know of no emblems used with the 1914/15 star.

Thanks,

Dave

It refers to a mention in despatches.

TR

[depaor01]

3 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

It refers to a mention in despatches.

TR

So not a physical item like the 14 rose?

[Terry_Reeves]

22 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

So not a physical item like the 14 rose?

It was a bronze oak leaf worn on the ribbon to signify the mention.

TR