Scottish Uniform.

[Keith Sloane]

Any clues as to the Uniform please.  It's not any NZ uniform so has to be before he arrived in NZ. 
This soldier was in the NZEF during WWI. Having been born Scotland. His previous military training was in the 'Special Reserves Perth.'
He survived Gallipoli and France and enlisted again in WWII but did not go overseas. 
Keith

[6RRF]

Very hard to tell from the quality of the photie. It's most likely either Gordons [yellow overstripes] or Seaforths [white overstripes and an invisible red overstripe]. 

HLI is a possibility but would depend on the placing of the red overstripes

Another possibility might be Liverpool Scottish, which is basically the same as the Gordons but with a white overstripe.

The cap-badge would obviously help if we could see it, but we can't although the little we can see suggests its too small for the Gordons

[FROGSMILE]

He’s almost certainly a Seaforth warrant officer class II, because yellow lines of Gordon’s appear very dark and do not show on orthochromatic film.  The photo below shows three Seaforth Highlanders by way of comparison.

As regards the HLI, only two battalions wore kilts, the 6th, which did use the Mackenzie tartan, but a special diced bonnet, and the 9th, which wore Government No1 (Black Watch) tartan.  He could be 6th HLI later in the war with a drab Tam o Shanter bonnet, but Seaforth is far more likely statistically.

 I’m not aware of any NZEF unit that wore Scottish style uniform in France and Flanders.

There’s a formation battle patch on his left upper arm that might give a clue if it can be identified.

“Special Reserves” refers to what had prior to 1908 been the auxiliary units of Militia and Perth had been the Depot and HQ of the Royal Highland (Black Watch) Regiment, including the Special Reserve battalion of that regiment.  It’s not impossible that your subject served with that unit prewar.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Excuse me for asking, is this a Sergeant Major [specifically W.O.2]?
I see a crown on each arm and a [pace]stick?
Tank.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Excuse me for asking, is this a Sergeant Major [specifically W.O.2]?
I see a crown on each arm and a [pace]stick?
Tank.

Yes, tank, I’d just edited that in - he could be CSM, or RQMS - as badges were the same at the time.  He’s holding a walking stick rather than a pace stick.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[caladonia]

Hello there

The W.O. is most probally from the 9th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders, part of 9th Division, they wore a blue disc, with a white disc in the middle, on both sleeves. Info from badges of Kitcheners Army, by D. Bilton . Attached is a very clear photo of the patch worn by Lieutenant Colonel W Petty DSO. From the IWM collections.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, caladonia said:

Hello there

The W.O. is most probally from the 9th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders, part of 9th Division, they wore a blue disc, with a white disc in the middle, on both sleeves. Info from badges of Kitcheners Army, by D. Bilton . Attached is a very clear photo of the patch worn by Lieutenant Colonel W Petty DSO. From the IWM collections.

 

 

Brilliant!  I agree and think that you’ve cracked it. I have that book and should have checked.  This pioneer of the 9th, who were a pioneer battalion looks similar, along with his discrete collar badges.  I must say though that the central disc does not look at all ‘white’, as evidenced by comparison with the white lines in the kilt.

The 7th battalion were also in 9th Div.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Keith Sloane]

Thanks Guys, after posting the topic I went looking on Google and did see some images similar to yours. 
I'm not sure you all got the fact he was in the NZ Army during the entire war.  Landed at Gallipoli on April 25.

Photo has to be PRE WWI and supposedly 'Special Reserves Perth', as he stated on his enlistment form in 1914. 

The owner of the photo thought WWII but that's not correct hence my post.

I wondered about those crowns on the lower sleeve and the other dark and light circle on the upper sleeve.  Maybe he just got an 'old' uniform.
Seaforth Highlander caught my eye when trolling the net. 

I did my best in photoshop to lighten it up a bit, but generally it's a shocker. 
Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Keith Sloane said:

Thanks Guys, after posting the topic I went looking on Google and did see some images similar to yours. 
I'm not sure you all got the fact he was in the NZ Army during the entire war.  Landed at Gallipoli on April 25.

Photo has to be PRE WWI and supposedly 'Special Reserves Perth', as he stated on his enlistment form in 1914. 

The owner of the photo thought WWII but that's not correct hence my post.

I wondered about those crowns on the lower sleeve and the other dark and light circle on the upper sleeve.  Maybe he just got an 'old' uniform.
Seaforth Highlander caught my eye when trolling the net. 

I did my best in photoshop to lighten it up a bit, but generally it's a shocker. 
Thanks.

I’m afraid the facts don’t support your hypothesis about who and what the subject photo shows.

First, the plain crown seen on the soldier’s lower arms, on a uniform without a Sam Browne belt, can only be a warrant officer class 2.  That rank was first introduced in July 1915.

Secondly, the uniform shown is WW1 field dress from 1916 onward, when the khaki bonnet seen was first introduced.

Third, the combination of kilt, and upper arm badge, confirms the uniform as 9th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (a war-raised unit) of the 9th (Scottish) Infantry Division, one of the formations created by the establishment of Lord Kitchener’s so-called New Armies recruited from citizen volunteers of the then United Kingdom, (which included Ireland).

Fourth, the “Special Reserve” unit associated with Perth was the “Black Watch”, an entirely different regiment.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Keith Sloane]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s almost certainly a Seaforth warrant officer class II, because yellow lines of Gordon’s appear very dark and do not show on orthochromatic film.  The photo below shows three Seaforth Highlanders by way of comparison.

As regards the HLI, only two battalions wore kilts, the 6th, which did use the Mackenzie tartan, but a special diced bonnet, and the 9th, which wore Government No1 (Black Watch) tartan.  He could be 6th HLI later in the war with a drab Tam o Shanter bonnet, but Seaforth is far more likely statistically.

 I’m not aware of any NZEF unit that wore Scottish style uniform in France and Flanders.

There’s a formation battle patch on his left upper arm that might give a clue if it can be identified.

“Special Reserves” refers to what had prior to 1908 been the auxiliary units of Militia and Perth had been the Depot and HQ of the Royal Highland (Black Watch) Regiment, including the Special Reserve battalion of that regiment.  It’s not impossible that your subject served with that unit prewar.

Definitely No NZ Regt wore a kilt. This chap was born in Ayr in April 1892.  So at what age could he have joined the military before 1913 when I'd suggest the latest he arrived in NZ. 

[Keith Sloane]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m afraid the facts don’t support your hypothesis about who and what the subject photo shows.

First, the plain crown seen on the soldier’s lower arms, on a uniform without a Sam Browne belt, can only be a warrant officer class 2.  That rank was first introduced in July 1915.

Secondly, the uniform shown is WW1 field dress from 1916 onward, when the khaki bonnet seen was first introduced.

Third, the combination of kilt, and upper arm badge, confirms the uniform as 9th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (a war-raised unit) of the 9th (Scottish) Infantry Division, one of the formations created by the establishment of Lord Kitchener’s so-called New Armies recruited from citizen volunteers of the then United Kingdom, (which included Ireland). 

 

Just now, Keith Sloane said:

Definitely No NZ Regt wore a kilt. This chap was born in Ayr in April 1892.  So at what age could he have joined the military before 1913 when I'd suggest the latest he arrived in NZ. 

I get that and now it just might be a relative; brother even.  These things happen in families over a hundred plus years. 
I cant say the resemblance to a later photo is definitive.  

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, Keith Sloane said:

Definitely No NZ Regt wore a kilt. This chap was born in Ayr in April 1892.  So at what age could he have joined the military before 1913 when I'd suggest the latest he arrived in NZ. 

The youngest age for joining the British military after 1902 was 14-years old as a Boy Entrant.  Before 1902 it was 12-years old (in both cases with parents or guardians explicit permission).  In addition there were many boys who looked a bit older than their years who enlisted with a “false declaration” of age.  At that time the authorities had to accept the declaration as many enlistees were not in possession of birth certification.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE