Please identify bayonet

[ticker70]

[trajan]

Welcome to GWForum!

Italian for sure - I think its a M1870 bayonet for Vetterli-Vitali rifle. Not certain of the maker though as these are not my field! 

Trajan

[AndyBsk]

Yes Trajan is correct most real italian Vetterli Vitali M1870/16 as this looks like shortage done in WW1. For this speaks blueing of blade and handle, new serial on crosspiece, and shortening to M1891 blade lenght probably.

Edited 3 February , 2023 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

Please let us know the blade length - as AndyB says it seems to have been shortened, a WW1 modification. Is there another stamp on the other ricasso, the upper part of the bayonet? I cannot identify the 'CM' maker!

Trajan 

[AndyBsk]

CM are most real inspector initials.

[Steve1871]

1870 or 71/87/91/15, bayonets were reduced muzzle ring for newer models, finally modified a last time, shortening the blade and scabbard to fit in 1915/16 as AndyBsk say

[AndyBsk]

I believe this bayonet was probably destined for 6,5mm conversion of M1870/87/15 Vetterli Vitalli rifle. the locking system remains unchanged the MRD is 17,4mm.

[ticker70]

19 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

1870 or 71/87/91/15, bayonets were reduced muzzle ring for newer models, finally modified a last time, shortening the blade and scabbard to fit in 1915/16 as AndyBsk say

Any idea what it's worth?

[trajan]

1 hour ago, ticker70 said:

Any idea what it's worth?

I don't thinkk it is GWF policy to value items - and I certainly would not do so. You would need to visit an antique shop or scan internet sites and auction house catalogues for this, remembering that what a collector will pay for an item is less than what it might be advertised or valued at. Broadly speaking there is a 10-20% difference in value between what something is worth and advertised at and what a collector will pay. 

Trajan

[Chasemuseum]

Value is an extremely difficult subject. Auction prices are generally subject to a buyer's commission of 10% to 25%. Prices actually paid at militaria markets/fairs are often 20% below the ticket price. Retail prices buy shops that post online are all over the place. I was looking at one UK dealer's website with a huge range of bayonets and my reaction was that everything was about double what I considered as a fair market price. Antique shops and general market fairs/car boot sales the total spectrum of price from literally "give away" to utterly ridiculous. 

 

Traditionally in Oz, Italian WW1 bayonets commanded a low price as the collectors had little interest in them. Condition and the presence of the scabbard also heavily impacts value. Worn condition or the absence of the scabbard can halve the value. Poor condition can leave an item unsaleable. 

 

As Trajan has pointed out it is inappropriate to post an actual number on the forum.

Cheers

RT   

[ticker70]

Thank you for the gift info

[trajan]

As Chasemuseum has pointed out, Italian bayonets are not exactly collectable by those based outside of Italy. I don't know why, unless it is because the Italians were hardly involved in WW1. I have one only, but I do find them with their brass-fitted scabbards strangely attractive. My one was a gift from a GWF member, which is the only reason it came my way.

Julian

[shippingsteel]

Ah yes, but they ARE collectable and certainly sought after by people who value such things.! 

Here are a couple of mine that have been posted to the forum previously. Just solid representative examples that importantly remain in unaltered condition and so therefore true to their Period.

In the first photo we have the M1891 at top with brass mounted scabbard and frog. Interestingly in Australia, these were a "bringback item" after our troops encountered the Italians in North Africa during WW2.

Then in the second photo there is the full-length M1870 at the bottom, this one with the shorter spring, while the one shown in the OP has the longer spring. I believe the long-spring variant was amongst the last of the M1870 style produced dating to the late 1880s - 1890. They have ebonite grips.

They are a stylish looking sword-bayonet but incredibly long, as seen in comparison with the Turkish M1887 in the photo above it. Not surprising they often got cutdown for use in WW1.

(PS. The Turkish long bayonets were also popular "bringback items" to Australia. As I suspect this example is with it's dry and shrunken scabbard)

Cheers, SS 

Edited 13 June by shippingsteel

[Steve1871]

Thanks for the post there SS!  The early, long ones always look impressive 

[trajan]

Horses for courses I suppose SS. I don't disagree that they are collectable, and as I said I do find those scabbards strangely attractive with their brass fittings, and I certainly would not part with the one I have. As far as I am aware they are somewhat rare in the UK, though.

Trajan

[ticker70]

7 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Ah yes, but they ARE collectable and certainly sought after by people who value such things.! 

Here are a couple of mine that have been posted to the forum previously. Just solid representative examples that importantly remain in unaltered condition and so therefore true to their Period.

In the first photo we have the M1891 at top with brass mounted scabbard and frog. Interestingly in Australia, these were a "bringback item" after our troops encountered the Italians in North Africa during WW2.

Then in the second photo there is the full-length M1870 at the bottom, this one with the shorter spring, while the one shown in the OP has the longer spring. I believe the long-spring variant was amongst the last of the M1870 style produced dating to the late 1880s - 1890. They have ebonite grips.

They are a stylish looking sword-bayonet but incredibly long, as seen in comparison with the Turkish M1887 in the photo above it. Not surprising they often got cutdown for use in WW1.

(PS. The Turkish long bayonets were also popular "bringback items" to Australia. As I suspect this example is with it's dry and shrunken scabbard)

Cheers, SS 

Thanks for the info

[Chasemuseum]

On 06/02/2023 at 02:34, trajan said:

unless it is because the Italians were hardly involved in WW1

Hi Trajan, as a professional academic I am very surprised you made this statement.

Certainly, the Italian Armed forces Army and Navy, were small compared to UK/France/Russia or Germany/Austro-Hungary, however their commitment and their casualties were substantial. Some 650,000 killed, 600,000 captured and about 950,000 wounded from some 5.6m who served. A substantially greater commitment than the USA or Turkey.

The value of their participation to the Entente is questionable. The quality of the Italian Army leadership was poor and the disaster of Caporetto posed a real threat to Italy having to make a separate peace that would have benefitted German and Austrian naval activity in the Mediterranean. To the positive side, they did put a great deal of additional pressure on the Austo-Hungarian Empire and substantially reduce their offensive capacity to Russia.

Cheers

Ross

[trajan]

On 08/02/2023 at 00:10, Chasemuseum said:

Hi Trajan, as a professional academic I am very surprised you made this statement.

Certainly, the Italian Armed forces Army and Navy, were small compared to UK/France/Russia or Germany/Austro-Hungary, however their commitment and their casualties were substantial. Some 650,000 killed, 600,000 captured and about 950,000 wounded from some 5.6m who served. A substantially greater commitment than the USA or Turkey.

The value of their participation to the Entente is questionable. The quality of the Italian Army leadership was poor and the disaster of Caporetto posed a real threat to Italy having to make a separate peace that would have benefitted German and Austrian naval activity in the Mediterranean. To the positive side, they did put a great deal of additional pressure on the Austo-Hungarian Empire and substantially reduce their offensive capacity to Russia.

Cheers

Ross

Hi Ross,  and one and all! Well, the 6th Feb. earthquake and earthquake related changes in the university curricuum subsequently plus other factors have conspired to keep me away from GWF since 7th/8th February, and so this very belated reply - my first real chance to get on GWF since then as it is now mid-term exam week, so while waiting for 115 essays to come in and be graded, I am free!

Ross, you are quite right to chastise me... I guess what was going through my mind when I made that comment was my impression that there are very few-bring backs of Italian bayonets in the UK or related countries due to the relatively limited amount of contact between most allied units and Italian ones. I could be wrong, but what is certain is that I have never seen any WW1 Italian bayonets for sale in the UK. To which I would add that FWIIW, they rarely seem to make more than a token appearance on this forum! I can think off-hand of more discussions on Greek bayonets than Italian ones - although I should do a search before swearing on that! All that aside, though, my comment was, as you indicate, quite uncalled for and needed to be qualified.

Julian

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Julian, 

No worries. Welcome back to the forum.

Agree with your comment about the general supply of WW1 Italian material amongst the English speaking collecting market. It's marked by very poor supply, comparatively low prices (for many years) and frankly very little interest.

Back in in 1978, I provided an Italian WW1 rifle & bayonet display at an Arms Fair here in Australia. The lack of interest was embarrassing. Several collector friends made the comment - why did I even bother? Well the reason was that we make a huge deal about our AIF in WW1 and the Italians were roughly 10x our KIA, 4x our WIA, and 15x our number served. The economic damage to the country paved the way to the fascist state ....  At the same time the Italian WW1 rifles - 1870 Vetterli, 1887 Vetterli-Vitali, 1870/87/1915 V-V-Carcano and various versions of the 1891 Carcano, although not that common, were very cheap and gave an excellent display of Italian material at a fraction of the cost of an equivalent display for most other countries.  The development sequence is quite interesting from the technology perspective.

Add to this, strategic impact from an Australian perspective, that the Italian attempts to blockade the Adriatic, significantly limited the impact of German U-boat attacks in the Mediterranean on Allied shipping, which was critical to the AIF - the U-boats having to operate from Austrian port facilities in the Adriatic. People also tend to forget that Japan deployed a cruiser squadron in the Mediterranean to suppress U-boat activity.

Basically, it was a World War, not just the Western Front.

For any who are curious, I have no Italian ancestry. A friend of my mother, her father served with the Italian Army during the war, but he was long dead before I came along. Similarly another friend had a grandfather who served in the Italian Army. Again I never met him either. All of the WW1 veterans I have ever met were either British or Australian. 

[trajan]

Thanks Ross! So, simply a matter of what people have long considered collectable and as worthy bring backs as opposed to now, non-collectable items... But as I said above, I do find these shortened ones and the brass scabbard fittings strangely attractive. Suffice to say in regard to that, that I have never had the heart to sell my own one despite it sitting alone in my collection!

Julian

Edited 31 March , 2023 by trajan

[navydoc16]

@Chasemuseum out of curiosity mate, do you have any good sources for information that discuss the dates and manufacture of the 1891 Carcano bayonets, I am interested in learning more about them but need some direction.

kind regards,

g

[shippingsteel]

Here is an old thread that has some discussion regarding dates of the M1891 bayonets. Not much but information on that particular topic is virtually non-existent.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/180981-sciabola-baionetta-modello-91/

Cheers,  SS 

[Chasemuseum]

5 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

o you have any good sources for information that discuss the dates and manufacture of the 1891 Carcano bayonets

Unfortunately no. There is a good book on Italian bayonets (in Italian) but it does not attempt to date production of the m91 (the main reason I bought it). So basically we are waiting for one of our Italian friends to take the plunge and print a good reference on the subject.

[navydoc16]

4 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

Unfortunately no. There is a good book on Italian bayonets (in Italian) but it does not attempt to date production of the m91 (the main reason I bought it). So basically we are waiting for one of our Italian friends to take the plunge and print a good reference on the subject.really, but glad to see I wasn’t the only one with issues 

It’s quite annoying really, I’m in the process of acquiring an Italian 91 SMLE conversion, have been offered a pick of three and wanted to get the oldest one just for fun- but literally can’t work out anything out in terms of how old each one is. 
 

kind regards

g

Edited 18 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is an old thread that has some discussion regarding dates of the M1891 bayonets. Not much but information on that particular topic is virtually non-existent.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/180981-sciabola-baionetta-modello-91/

Cheers,  SS 

Thanks mate, appreciate the assistance none the less- you have a beautiful bayonet I must say, turned out rather nicely - certainly looks all original

you most definitely have the widest breath of collecting I have seen in some time, nice to see someone appreciating all aspects and countries.

kind regards

g