aconnolly Posted 21 February , 2023 Share Posted 21 February , 2023 Hi all Recently my elderly mother- in-law located her dad's bayonet. He served in the RFC/RAF WW1 (UK/France) and Home Guard in New Zealand WW2. Leather belt fitting that is attached to the scabbard has the NZ marking so I think it is likely he received this bayonet in NZ WW2 but I'm trying to establish more about its history. Looking at previous posts and on various web sites such as "oldmilitarymarkings.com" I' wonder if the following is correct? Manufactured by Sanderson of Sheffield Am I right in concluding it entered service June 1899? (6 99) and that it may have been a South Wales Borderers bayonet?? Looking at various photos on "Bayonets of Britain: 1700 through the First World War" I believe it is a pattern 1888 mark II but again I may be wrong! All help gratefully received! Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 February , 2023 Share Posted 21 February , 2023 You are mostly correct. It is indeed a Pattern 1888 sword bayonet made by Sanderson of Sheffield, but in this case a Mk.I (2nd pattern). Date of acceptance is 6/99 indicating June 1899. I can see nothing in relation to any unit markings, however the style of the numbering on the crossguard (2174) would definitely suggest it saw use in New Zealand. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 21 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2023 Many thanks SS Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 March , 2023 Share Posted 27 March , 2023 (edited) On 21/02/2023 at 07:57, aconnolly said: Hi all ... I'm trying to establish more about its history. I read that mark as '2L74'. I can see only a lower 'leg' to the right at the bottom, no continuation to the right if it was the base of a '1', also no left tail at the top. I agree with SS though that the location and overall style of the mark is NZ not GB or ny other of the allied territories. Also worth noting this bayonet has its original Sanderson stamped grips! Trajan Edited 27 March , 2023 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 31 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2023 Many thanks Trajan - seems like y it was a NZ Defence Force issue - fits with him being in Home Guard WW2 Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 8 April , 2023 Share Posted 8 April , 2023 I think that i can see where the SWB = South Wales Borderers comes from. Overlapping inspection stamps on the side of the blade just above the muzzle ring provide the apparent S W B. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 8 April , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2023 Thanks JMB Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 8 April , 2023 Share Posted 8 April , 2023 On 27/03/2023 at 22:53, trajan said: I read that mark as '2L74'. I can see only a lower 'leg' to the right at the bottom, no continuation to the right if it was the base of a '1', also no left tail at the top. I agree with SS though that the location and overall style of the mark is NZ not GB or ny other of the allied territories. Also worth noting this bayonet has its original Sanderson stamped grips! Trajan Some different 1's stamped on NZ rifles & bayonets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 8 April , 2023 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2023 Thanks - so likely the family one is originally a British issue but ended up here at some time prior to ww2? Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 9 April , 2023 Share Posted 9 April , 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, aconnolly said: Thanks - so likely the family one is originally a British issue but ended up here at some time prior to ww2? Andrew Who knows?? Prior to the Boer war I don't think NZ had any long Lee's but we certainly had Martini Enfield Carbines fitted with P1888s so this might be pre Boer war so NZ would be the first owners or otherwise acquired during the Boer war either by direct purchase or suppled by the British or with NZs purchase of Long Lee's from England & Canada in 1914 Edited 9 April , 2023 by 5thBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 9 April , 2023 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2023 great - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 April , 2023 Share Posted 10 April , 2023 On 09/04/2023 at 00:28, 5thBatt said: Some different 1's stamped on NZ rifles & bayonets Oh, I don't deny that there are many variations on a '1', but that is such a well-struck and deeply impressed mark I read it as an 'L'! But, in GB regulations 'L' would be 'lancers'... I doubt that they carried any form of rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 Well there is no doubt the stamping is a numeral (1) and not a letter L ... And this photo that 5thBatt posted not only matches the numbers with the identical font and dies, but also proves the NZ linkage with the stampings being associated with the N^Z ownership mark on this SMLE rifle. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 Are you referring to the 2 hours ago, shippingsteel said: Well there is no doubt the stamping is a numeral (1) and not a letter L ... And this photo that 5thBatt posted not only matches the numbers with the identical font and dies, but also proves the NZ linkage with the stampings being associated with the N^Z ownership mark on this SMLE rifle. Cheers, SS Are you referring to the '!!' mark? Reading this as part of a serial number '740911'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, trajan said: Are you referring to the Are you referring to the '!!' mark? Reading this as part of a serial number '740911'? NZ inventory number 7409 over year of acceptance into NZ service 1911 Edited 11 April , 2023 by 5thBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 4 minutes ago, 5thBatt said: NZ inventory number 7409 over year of acceptance into NZ service 1911 Thanks! I am not familiar with NZ marking systems, and had no idea their rifles were marked with abbreviated year of acceptance dates on this part! Even so, in a case comparable to the 'hanging chads' debate, I still see the mark '2L74' rather than '2174'! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 Oh I see you have posted another 1911 acceptance example mark before with another type of 'one'! https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/255921-1910-enfield-mkiii-nz-issue/ Which looks identical to the one above but without the 'foot', so makes me wonder if the 'foot' on that one is simply a mark left by the stamp and not 'real - but I seriously DON'T want to get into a debate or argument on this!!! We just see different things Maybe I have just one too many German and RAF serial number stamps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 11 minutes ago, trajan said: Oh I see you have posted another 1911 acceptance example mark before with another type of 'one'! https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/255921-1910-enfield-mkiii-nz-issue/ Which looks identical to the one above but without the 'foot', so makes me wonder if the 'foot' on that one is simply a mark left by the stamp and not 'real - but I seriously DON'T want to get into a debate or argument on this!!! We just see different things Maybe I have just one too many German and RAF serial number stamps... I also posted it here in this thread, here is another, we do see a few variations but that would be due to different times &/or locations &/or different people doing the stamping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 Thanks. I take your point. Out of interest, do the rifles have sold out of service marks also? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, trajan said: Thanks. I take your point. Out of interest, do the rifles have sold out of service marks also? Julian Sale marks, yes on the butt & receiver Edited 11 April , 2023 by 5thBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 Thanks! I guess what I found odd is, in my limited experience (I only have one NZ P.07) there is no 'year of acceptance' into service mark on the bayonets matching that on the rifles. I find these little variations in procedure interesting, mainly, I suppose, because I really study Imperial German markings, which - with Teutonic efficiency - in, for example, 1909, issued a 30 page booklet on how to mark service issue weapons, detailing sizes, placement, etc., of the stamps as issued by a central authority, namely the 'Gewehrfabrik Danzig'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 (edited) They stopped with the year of acceptance on the receiver (long lees on butt tang) by or during WW1 (however there are some anomalies) post war they only stamped N^Z on rifles & bayonets plus any unit markings as required, any dates were stamped on the butt discs NZ Mk1 SMLE & P1903 marked same as MkIIIs & P1907s Edited 11 April , 2023 by 5thBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 We live and we learn! Thanks for all this very helpful information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 11 April , 2023 Share Posted 11 April , 2023 10 hours ago, trajan said: We live and we learn! Thanks for all this very helpful information! It's only a snippet of information really, there are plenty of variations & anomalies especially where a inventory number & acceptance date were transferred to replacement receivers which means you can find rifles dated later than the acceptance date There's also plenty of P1888s with the inventory number stamped on the pommel instead of the cross guard in NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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