Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 Hi, My wife's friend sent me a photo of two soldiers, one to believed to be a relative. Tpr John Francis Mason born around 1880 in Chapel-en-Le-Frith but that is all they know about him apart from this photo. I am trying to identify the collar dogs so at least we have a unit to search further. I think the collar dogs are the 11th Hussars, could anyone please assist. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 Hello, I definitely think it's 11 Hussars since it looks way too similar, but others could say otherwise... Similar noses and ears.. off-chance of a relation? Perhaps siblings or cousins? Zidane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 Thanks Zidane, At least I know my eyes are that bad and I can still see shapes and I am on the right track. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 5 minutes ago, Spree Farm said: Thanks Zidane, At least I know my eyes are that bad and I can still see shapes and I am on the right track. Regards I'm not all together convinced.. I cannot find a John Francis Mason in the Hussars, nor one born in Chapel-En-Le-Frith [Derbyshire..?].. Perhaps I'm going crazy.. Zidane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 No you are not, I thought I was and I have been looking all afternoon. I cannot find him either and the date 1880 does not fit the photo. I am happy the badges are correct but not the person. Yes, Chapel is in Derbyshire and I know the place and area well and we are all pretty well inbred somewhere along the line. We have a photo taken in Tideswell circa 1905 of the local football team and all the players are named Lomas, these are from my mothers side. One of those on the photo is CSM Samuel Henry Lomas MM of the Notts and Derby, who was involved in the Easter uprising in Dublin. I will get back when I can confirm more details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 7 minutes ago, Spree Farm said: CSM Samuel Henry Lomas MM Very well documented I see... Very interesting fella.https://derbyshireterritorials.uk/other-ranks/original-1914-recruits/3415241062-samuel-henry-lomas/ Zidane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 My second cousin somewhere along the line. I know the guy who owns his medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 7 hours ago, Spree Farm said: John Francis Mason born around 1880 in Chapel-en-Le-Frith Does your wife's friend have any other information on this chap? Parent's names for example? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 (edited) They certainly appear to be 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars, and seem quite young, perhaps not serving overseas at all. They’re also wearing their trousers long, which is unusual for men of mounted units. Clearly a very casual photo opportunity, with no waistbelts and one even with lower pocket flap unfastened and stuffed into the inset. Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 Hi George We are working on it. I am away working in the West Australian mines so won’t get to talk to her until tomorrow so I should know then Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 You might be right about the age I am thinking he was not in WW1 but the second. Should know more tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Spree Farm said: You might be right about the age I am thinking he was not in WW1 but the second. Should know more tomorrow That seems more likely to me too. Their jackets have a more fitted, post war look to them (the specification changed). Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 Do you know if the 11th have a cadet or volunteer units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Spree Farm said: Do you know if the 11th have a cadet or volunteer units? No to both, but they did enlist a set number (maximum) of Boys (i.e. under 18s) as trainee Trumpeters. Many were sons of serving soldiers, but there were also quite a few orphans from Board and Industrial schools who had already started to learn music. However, I would expect to see crossed trumpet badges on right upper arm if that were the case in this instance. Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 24 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2023 My wife has just sent me this picture of John Francis Fletcher as a trumpeter Looks like a different person , the plot thickens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 February , 2023 Share Posted 24 February , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Spree Farm said: My wife has just sent me this picture of John Francis Fletcher as a trumpeter Looks like a different person , the plot thickens Not just a trumpeter, although that was clearly his own leading instrument. He is actually dressed as the regimental bandmaster (distinguished specifically by the bullion gilt wire shoulder knot and regimental frock coat, a combination worn only by the BM). At that time the bullion shoulder knot was his badge of office**. He appears to be displaying his collection of prizes for musicial performances. **the knot was of a distinctive type often described as an engineer knot as it was favoured by that corps. It was distinguished by a termination at the shoulder in three loops. It was quite widely used to identify specialists and was also used as a badge of office by regimental schoolmasters in all units established for one. Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 25 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2023 Wow! That was well spotted and information well received. This is where the water gets cloudy. John Francis was born in 1886 and the picture of someone in military uniform, maybe John Francis Fletcher (Junior) is about as far a his military career as far as I can see from a very confusing family tree my wife was sent. The author of which believes the Bandmaster uniform he is wearing is as a Bandmaster for Peak Dale Brass band, which also may be incorrect. I have raised several questions including what he did in the war etc. Anyway, I think we should stop here as I only wish clarification on the collar dogs, which might I add has led to some very interesting reading, which I once again thank you learned people. Kind Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 25 February , 2023 Share Posted 25 February , 2023 On 24/02/2023 at 01:24, Spree Farm said: Tpr John Francis Mason born around 1880 in Chapel-en-Le-Frith is, I believe, this man's brother in law 3 hours ago, Spree Farm said: John Francis Fletcher Mason married Lily Fletcher and was Sherwood Foresters in WW1 #18530 with SWB. Known as Frank. Doesn't help with collar dogs-but thanks for the interesting challenge! George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 February , 2023 Share Posted 25 February , 2023 4 hours ago, Spree Farm said: Wow! That was well spotted and information well received. This is where the water gets cloudy. John Francis was born in 1886 and the picture of someone in military uniform, maybe John Francis Fletcher (Junior) is about as far a his military career as far as I can see from a very confusing family tree my wife was sent. The author of which believes the Bandmaster uniform he is wearing is as a Bandmaster for Peak Dale Brass band, which also may be incorrect. I have raised several questions including what he did in the war etc. Anyway, I think we should stop here as I only wish clarification on the collar dogs, which might I add has led to some very interesting reading, which I once again thank you learned people. Kind Regards David It’s entirely possible that the photo shows him as the bandmaster of a civilian band, indeed the make up of the photo has that feel. Most civilian bands of that era adopted distinctly military style uniforms. Were he an army band master I would have expected to see him wearing a waist belt, and by 1912 most regiments had replaced that type of elaborate frock coat with a simpler, double breasted style featuring two tapering lines of gilt brass buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 25 February , 2023 Share Posted 25 February , 2023 (edited) On 24/02/2023 at 06:54, Spree Farm said: My wife has just sent me this picture of John Francis Fletcher as a trumpeter Looks like a different person , the plot thickens Bandmaster Fletcher was a Cornet player. In his time the Cornet was much more popular than the Trumpet. Edited 25 February , 2023 by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spree Farm Posted 25 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2023 15 hours ago, George Rayner said: is, I believe, this man's brother in law Mason married Lily Fletcher and was Sherwood Foresters in WW1 #18530 with SWB. Known as Frank. Doesn't help with collar dogs-but thanks for the interesting challenge! George The Masons are on my wife's side of the family. One of these, John Mason (Jack) KOYLI ended up a POW in Stalag IVF and came back unable to speak properly and was deaf through mistreatment, probably a beating. We have tried to obtain his service and medical records but there are caveats in place that prevent release until 2029, even to next of kin. He ended up as a "Knight of the Road" and was often seen cleaning his shoes. Which everyone who knew him remembers him by. Very sad. He died about 20 years ago alone and they didn't find his body few several days. He was cremated and his ashes scattered in a garden of remembrance near Wolverhampton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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