Help please identifying two soldier uniform photographs

[Lyndale]

Dear All, the Manchester Regiment soldier has been identified and was recalled for WWI. He is 9917 Pte. James Rigby born 8.2.1886, the paternal Grandfather of the person I'm helping who owns the two photographs, who has asked me to thank all involved on his behalf. From the photography studio clue c1907 at Borden Camp and estimating his age of between 19 and 25 born in Lancashire, he was able to select a suitable candidate from his extensive tree (both photos were amongst his late mother effects). His first enlistment in 1904 is briefly listed, but only until disembarking at what I think is Jersey (?) but no discharge date. He was discharged a second time 8.1.15 Para 392 (XVI) no longer fit for war service, but we now have a connection to the Great War! Cheers Graham

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/05/2023 at 00:43, Lyndale said:

Dear All, the Manchester Regiment soldier has been identified and was recalled for WWI. He is 9917 Pte. James Rigby born 8.2.1886, the paternal Grandfather of the person I'm helping who owns the two photographs, who has asked me to thank all involved on his behalf. From the photography studio clue c1907 at Borden Camp and estimating his age of between 19 and 25 born in Lancashire, he was able to select a suitable candidate from his extensive tree (both photos were amongst his late mother effects). His first enlistment in 1904 is briefly listed, but only until disembarking at what I think is Jersey (?) but no discharge date. He was discharged a second time 8.1.15 Para 392 (XVI) no longer fit for war service, but we now have a connection to the Great War! Cheers Graham

Thank you for the update, it’s clear that the two photos you posted show the same man and his aging over the decade between is apparent.  Your mention of Jersey, one of the Channel Islands** off the coast of Brittany, indicates that he was with the 2nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment:

 1900.04South Africa 

 1902England: Aldershot 

 1904Channel Islands: Guernsey

The Manchester Regiment was one of a handful with large urban populations within its allotted recruiting area that doubled its number of regular battalions from two to four between 1900-1906 in order to meet the demands for manpower induced by the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (1899-1902) and its aftermath.

** there were two principal islands, Jersey and Guernsey and traditionally a separate regular infantry battalion garrisoned each#.  However, as the Army was still adjusting to the post Boer war retrenchment there was a 13-month hiatus with just one battalion in place, on Guernsey (as mentioned on his Medical sheet) during 1904 (Fort George’s Barracks): http://www.314th.org/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle/904KAA.pdf

# in addition each island had a discrete and active Militia Battalion (disbanded in 1946).  See:

1. https://guernseydonkey.com/the-rgli-royal-guernsey-light-infantry/

2.https://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Garrison_regiments

 

 

 

Edited 17 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

A bit of confusion I fear. The last three photies [and splendid ones they are too] show Fort George, Ardersier - near Inverness.

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

A bit of confusion I fear. The last three photies [and splendid ones they are too] show Fort George, Ardersier - near Inverness.

Thank you I was puzzled by the differing views but was fooled because much of the Guernsey ‘Fort George’ was demolished for new housing and I’d thought those latter photos were pre demolition.  I will delete those from Scotland!

Edit:  now deleted and replaced!

Edited 16 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Lyndale]

As it turns out the owner of the company I worked for, before I retired, purchased Charlotte Battery in Guernsey, within which he built an exec home on its high point and then developed the battery site into gardens and swimming pool whilst retaining all the original walls. I have visited twice and display three snaps, two of the main battery entrance, but with modern, yet contemporary gates, retaining the original battery naming stone. The other pic was taken during the swimming pool construction. The three original gunpowder magazines were converted into (L-R) pool showers and toilet - cinema room - gym. The cell for defaulters with original door and grill is now a storeroom! He has no intention of selling anytime soon! Cheers Lyndale

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Lyndale said:

As it turns out the owner of the company I worked for, before I retired, purchased Charlotte Battery in Guernsey, within which he built an exec home on its high point and then developed the battery site into gardens and swimming pool whilst retaining all the original walls. I have visited twice and display three snaps, two of the main battery entrance, but with modern, yet contemporary gates, retaining the original battery naming stone. The other pic was taken during the swimming pool construction. The three original gunpowder magazines were converted into (L-R) pool showers and toilet - cinema room - gym. The cell for defaulters with original door and grill is now a storeroom! He has no intention of selling anytime soon! Cheers Lyndale

Fantastic to see, thank you.  So many coincidences for you in this thread.

[Lyndale]

This will interest you Frogsmile.

Because I've now identified the soldier standing in the 2-man K.O. Royal Regiment (Lancaster) photograph for my friend with the RIGBY family tree - see pages 1 and 4 of his service record. James Rigby, Born Salford 1882, enlisted 8/5/1901, 6729, 1st Bn. Mounted Infantry 1903. Served India 1903-1909. Discharged 24/2/1909. This date spread embraces Lebong/Darjeeling 1908. Thus old style foreign tunic was worn late in this instance. James Rigby was recalled from the Reserve for WWI into 1st Bn., new number 4555 19/9/14 declaring in attestation his previous service in K.O. R.R.(L). To France 17/3/15, leave 10/6/16, France again 21/6/16. Sadly DOW 16/6/16. However, I was amazed to find both records survived separately and not combined and lost in WWII. 

Our theory now is that the seated soldier. who has the standing soldier's hand on the back of his shoulder (which I find symbolic) is his half-brother John Rigby born 1883, who was 13 months younger and both grew up together. Can't find his service record, believed lost, nor found in the medal rolls, nor in the SWB List, but he's alive and well in 1921 working for L&Y Railway as a Carter. Having different mothers would explain the difference in their facial appearance and stature. Maybe his railway work provided him with Star status? Once again my thanks to all involved, Lyndale.   

 

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, Lyndale said:

This will interest you Frogsmile.

Because I've now identified the soldier standing in the 2-man K.O. Royal Regiment (Lancaster) photograph for my friend with the RIGBY family tree - see pages 1 and 4 of his service record. James Rigby, Born Salford 1882, enlisted 8/5/1901, 6729, 1st Bn. Mounted Infantry 1903. Served India 1903-1909. Discharged 24/2/1909. This date spread embraces Lebong/Darjeeling 1908. Thus old style foreign tunic was worn late in this instance. James Rigby was recalled from the Reserve for WWI into 1st Bn., new number 4555 19/9/14 declaring in attestation his previous service in K.O. R.R.(L). To France 17/3/15, leave 10/6/16, France again 21/6/16. Sadly DOW 16/6/16. However, I was amazed to find both records survived separately and not combined and lost in WWII. 

Our theory now is that the seated soldier. who has the standing soldier's hand on the back of his shoulder (which I find symbolic) is his half-brother John Rigby born 1883, who was 13 months younger and both grew up together. Can't find his service record, believed lost, nor found in the medal rolls, nor in the SWB List, but he's alive and well in 1921 working for L&Y Railway as a Carter. Having different mothers would explain the difference in their facial appearance and stature. Maybe his railway work provided him with Star status? Once again my thanks to all involved, Lyndale.   

 

Thank you for the update Lyndale, which is indeed of interest on several scores.  It’s very useful to know that the mounted infantry sections were still wearing their scarlet frocks with Bedford cord breeches and puttees as late as 1908.  It’s quite well known that the frock was then used as an official, more practical and less expensive alternative to full dress tunics in India and I’ve posted a photo above of some Fusiliers wearing that dress.  Thinking about it I suspect that when the battalion parades in Review Order the specialists such as the Mounted Infantry (MI) and early machine gun sections with Maxims on wheeled carriages might well have paraded in frocks and breeches.  It wouldn’t have been appropriate field dress, so I think that the photo shows the two men after they’d come off parade from a dusty maidan.

Your suggestion that the photo shows the two brothers whose details you’ve outlined seems entirely likely given the particular circumstances that you’ve mentioned.

Edited 21 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Lyndale]

Thanks for the explanation Frogsmile, but I can't see the example image of fusiliers wearing the frock coat? Cheers Lyndale 

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/05/2023 at 00:34, Lyndale said:

Thanks for the explanation Frogsmile, but I can't see the example image of fusiliers wearing the frock coat? Cheers Lyndale 

Not “frock coat”** Lyndale, but foreign service (India pattern) frock.  Here it is again, interspersed with men wearing blue serge jackets.  The sergeants pattern frock had white piping retrofitted to the edge and bottom in addition to that beneath collar and around shoulder straps, as a mark of their status.  Note the trefoil cuff knots that were a feature of this pattern of garment.

** the frock coat was an officers garment, dark blue, knee length and double breasted with two tapering rows of regimental buttons.  It wasn’t worn in India.

P.S.  If the photo post dates the 2nd Boer War and both men served there as MI it is exceedingly odd that they do not have campaign medal ribbons on their frocks.

Edited 23 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[tullybrone]

@FROGSMILESlightly off topic but any thoughts on the medals worn on the tunic right breast by several men in the above group photo?

Temperance springs to mind?

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

@FROGSMILESlightly off topic but any thoughts on the medals worn on the tunic right breast by several men in the above group photo?

Temperance springs to mind?

Steve

Yes they are definitely Temperance medals Steve, and the image has been seen elsewhere as an example of that.