Courts Martial

[Troyon1914]

Hello learned friends, i have been contemplating asking for help with a niggling problem about my grandfathers War record,in particular his desertion which is mentioned in his remarks on his medal index card. His name was Joseph/Joe Drury and  was in the 9th east Lancashire Regiment, Number number 14441,and  2nd South Lancs  number 49797. he was in France in 1915 then to Salonika. I looked on a free trial  with fold 3 and there was a Joseph Drury tried at Stalham in January 1919 and sentenced to 112 days imprisonment. My question to you all is could i find out what he had done to receive such a sentence after all those years at war?  His Papers haven't survived but his brother Walter's have ,he was 1st Battalion Lancashire fusiliers and make interesting reading with a charge sheet as long as your arm. If anyone could point me in the right direction of enquiry i would as always be most grateful.

[Simon Birch]

You found your grandfathers record in the court martial ledger (6th from the bottom). The book was designed to be looked at with the page you saw and the following page (below via Ancestry) - count up 6 from the bottom and there is your answer.

Hope that helps.

Simon

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, Troyon1914 said:

i have been contemplating asking for help with a niggling problem about my grandfathers War record,in particular his desertion which is mentioned in his remarks on his medal index card. His name was Joseph/Joe Drury and  was in the 9th east Lancashire Regiment, Number number 14441,and  2nd South Lancs  number 49797. he was in France in 1915 then to Salonika. I looked on a free trial  with fold 3 and there was a Joseph Drury tried at Stalham in January 1919 and sentenced to 112 days imprisonment. My question to you all is could i find out what he had done to receive such a sentence after all those years at war? 

I note from his MIC that the Desertion is struck-through and the 1914-15 Star is Rest[ored]. 

Of course medals could be restored and issued some time later and the entry is not dated - do you know if the Medal Roll has anything more to show on this matter?

There is also a pension index card showing the same class/date of transfer 22.5.19 He got 5/6 pw 23.5.19 to 25.5.20 [the 20% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier/Pte]  PIC includes an additional number 67904

If you can post an abstract showing the trial and sentence entry you have found it may assist GWF members who may not have access to such a source, to interpret and assist you.

M

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Simon Birch said:

Ah, we crossed and you may have *G of A = ???

M

 

[Simon Birch]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Ah, we crossed and you may have *G of A = ???

M

 

No idea - was hoping you had....!

Simon

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Simon Birch said:

No idea - was hoping you had....!

Fat chance on those sorts of things!! 

M

[Simon Birch]

A man of you skills - capable of anything...!

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Simon Birch said:

A man of you skills - capable of anything...!

You flatter outrageously!

I can try things, but often fail! 

M

[Simon Birch]

Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. At least that is what I keep telling myself....

[Matlock1418]

OK - I'll have a go [a wild one] ... Grant of Amnesty ??? [Given the Desertion on MIC]

M

Edited 12 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Simon Birch]

That was clever - I was sitting here pondering and got nowhere. Given that it was 1919 that seems plausible to me.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Simon Birch said:

Given that it was 1919 that seems plausible to me.

Being frustrated by delays in their demob many lads just chose to go home early - without the Army's consent and without any intent to return - so technically it was desertion rather than Absence Without Leave [AWOL - unauthorised absence of only a few hours or days perhaps, but with an intent to return or even a voluntary late return].

It seems to have been a fine line and could depend a lot on duration and if voluntarily returned or if a man had been apprehended for return to the Army.

Speculating ... Perhaps Joseph DRURY went home for Xmas and New Year [with or without leave] and either way was late back. [??] Potentially a voluntary return [and in the absence of seeing the whole record a seemingly likely an absence in the UK I think] would have likely worked somewhat in his favour and thus perhaps the annotation on the charge register [??]

M

Edited 12 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Troyon1914]

Hi eveyone and thankyou all for your quick replies ,Matlock i always thought on the lines of he did as you suggested,rather than wait for demob after being witht he army for nigh on 4 years he took the matter into his own hands and forgive the pun "marched with his feet". i also read somewhere about rioting by the East Lancashire's due to delays in De Mobilisation, bably South Lancs too. Would i need to look at Police Records for the reason of his desertion and trial at Stalham Norfolk ,and wondered if the Court system may hold records,forgive my naivety in these matters.

[Matlock1418]

Going AWOL/deserting and riots certainly did occur.

I'm sorry I cannot really comment/speculate further on a sentence of 112 day - whether or not it denoted some higher level of seriousness and/or any previous charge record = ??

And I can't help with police records etc. either I'm afraid.

I had hoped other more knowledgeable members might have come along by now - Hoping they still will.

Good luck - please let us know what you find as it all adds to our accumulated knowledge.

M

[Troyon1914]

Yes of course i will pass on further learning, it is quite a while since i looked at his M.I.C and often wondered about his sentence,on the British War Medal and Victory Medal Roll for the South Lancs he is also attached to the Machine Gun Company.

[rolt968]

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

OK - I'll have a go [a wild one] ... Grant of Amnesty ??? [Given the Desertion on MIC]

M

I have met G of A before and wondered if it was "G[uilty] of A[bsence]" (or Absent [without Leave]) i.e. guilty of a lesser charge. Either he had been found guilty of the lesser charge or he had pled(?} guilty in a plea bargain.

In the case where I have seen it the man concerned was most unlikely to benefit from an amnesty as he was a serial deserter, although come to think of it he might have given himself up knowing that amnesties were forthcoming.

RM

[TullochArd]

38 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I have met G of A before and wondered if it was "G[uilty] of A[bsence]" (or Absent [without Leave]) i.e. guilty of a lesser charge. Either he had been found guilty of the lesser charge or he had pled(?} guilty in a plea bargain.

I'm with you there rolt968.  Charged with Desertion (AA Section 12(1a)) but found Guilty of Absence without Leave (AA Section 15(1)) during the Court Martial and recorded as "G of A" 

Without the actual CM transcript it is mere speculation but the members likely made an evidence based decision to reduce the charge from Desertion (abandonment of a military duty or post without permission done with the intention of not returning) to unauthorized absence/absence without leave (both which are regarded as temporary forms of absence.)

There is a world of difference between the two charges as evidenced in the those brought against William Hunter who was shot for Desertion:  "1st Charge: Section 12 (A1) Army Act. The accused No.10710 Private William Hunter, 1/Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, a soldier of the regular forces, is charged with: When on Active Service, deserting His Majesty’s Service in that he, in the field, on the 23rd September 1915, absented himself from the 1st Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, until apprehended at BURBURE by Major F.D. Samuel 3rd Bn London Regiment on the 30th November 1915, thereby avoiding active operations against the enemy. 2nd Charge: Section 22 Army Act When in confinement escaping, in that he, at LILLERS on 1st December 1915, when in confinement in the detention room escaped. 3rd Charge: Section 22 Army Act When in confinement escaping, in that he, at MAZINGARBE, on the 5th January 1916, when in confinement in the guard detention room, awaiting Field General Court Martial, escaped. (Signed) A.C. Oppenheim Captain, Kings Royal Rifles."

Desertion is Life Imprisonment/Death and UA/AWOL is 3-6 months imprisonment.

Notice the "X and dots" next to "Do." for Desertion on the CM Ledger posted by Simon.  These are identical to the symbol found on MICs for "impress this detail"  Any ideas?  I'm stumped.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I have met G of A before and wondered if it was "G[uilty] of A[bsence]" (or Absent [without Leave]) i.e. guilty of a lesser charge. Either he had been found guilty of the lesser charge or he had pled(?} guilty in a plea bargain.

In the case where I have seen it the man concerned was most unlikely to benefit from an amnesty as he was a serial deserter, although come to think of it he might have given himself up knowing that amnesties were forthcoming.

2 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I'm with you there rolt968.  Charged with Desertion (AA Section 12(1a)) but found Guilty of Absence without Leave (AA Section 15(1)) during the Court Martial and recorded as "G of A" 

Without the actual CM transcript it is mere speculation but the members likely made an evidence based decision to reduce the charge from Desertion (abandonment of a military duty or post without permission done with the intention of not returning) to unauthorized absence/absence without leave (both which are regarded as temporary forms of absence.)

Thanks gents - that seems to fit the "G of A" bill - So frustrating these days that we dont' readily know what such annotations originally stood for, though no doubt the clerks of the day surely did. [I said I was previously guessing!  Now learnt something more  ]

2 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Desertion is Life Imprisonment/Death and UA/AWOL is 3-6 months imprisonment.

Not sure this absence took place O/S so I am not sure the former would have applied in full anyway but 3-4 months would certainly include 112 days.

2 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Notice the "X and dots" next to "Do." for Desertion on the CM Ledger posted by Simon.  These are identical to the symbol found on MICs for "impress this detail"  Any ideas?  I'm stumped.

An interesting notation that I cannot answer either - I agree I thought it looked like the marker on MIC.  Might be common or specific in a way that nowadays we would use an asterisk * ??

On the MIC there is no evidence the medals were returned after their issue. And as we know many original forfeitures of medals were ultimately later overturned and medals could be issued/reissued anyway.

= Though we haven't yet seen it I am still wondering if the Medal Roll may yet offer any further enlightenment as to what ended up on the MIC or its background  ?? 

M

Edited 12 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Troyon1914]

Hi Matlock,is this what you d??

[Troyon1914]

15 Star roll and  British War and Victory.

[Troyon1914]

Just found this South Lancs roll

[Matlock1418]

47 minutes ago, Troyon1914 said:

Hi Matlock,is this what you

Yes, those medal rolls were what I was hoping for, and now you have them - but unfortunately they do not offer much enlightenment on the "Desertion" annotation on the MIC beyond the 1914-15 Star forfeiture clearly being struck through on one, with resubmission, but no further on the background issue [that probably would have been too much to hope for and unlikely really - just hoping for a potential mention of the AR used].

What they do also show is that he was Transferred to Class Z [Army Z Reserve] as part of his demobilisation 

LLT has this to say

Class Z Reserve

This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920.  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists

M

Edited 12 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Troyon1914]

Matlock, thankyou for your endeavours, the knowledge on this forum simply amazes me, if you have the time please take a few minutes to read his brother Walter Drury's service papers, he was no 4503 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, though not present for the 6 VC's before breakfast he served in Gallipoli with the Battalion. On the Somme he was blown up and buried on the 1st of July no doubt emerging from the sunken lane at Beaumont Hamel and suffering shell shock, it is all in his papers. His conduct sheet makes you wonder how he avoided meeting the Squad at Dawn.

[Matlock1418]

15 hours ago, Troyon1914 said:

if you have the time please take a few minutes to read his brother Walter Drury's service papers, he was no 4503 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, though not present for the 6 VC's before breakfast he served in Gallipoli with the Battalion. On the Somme he was blown up and buried on the 1st of July no doubt emerging from the sunken lane at Beaumont Hamel and suffering shell shock, it is all in his papers. His conduct sheet makes you wonder how he avoided meeting the Squad at Dawn.

Sadly I do not have access to his service papers ['burnt' records or 'unburnt' pension based ones??] but I am sure you have seen his MIC - available at all the usual places, TNA, Ancestry, Fold3, WFA.

I am not so sure you will have seen his pension index card at WFA/Fold3 [which shows an interesting notation - which could imply things were not straight forward for him]

Walter DRURY, 4503, Lancashire Fusiliers

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Demobilised/transferred to the Z Army Reserve 12.1.19 it likely seems.

He claimed a disability pension for an unspecified condition [he will have claimed on a a Form Z.22 as all men had the opportunity to do so at that point]. Z Reserve and a 'minor' pension were not mutually exclusive.

Initially awarded 5/6 pw from 13.1.19 to 13.1.20 [the 20% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pte] his card is marked Rej 1.3.19 [i.e seemingly the claim was rejected for some reason shortly after the initial award] - what happened thereafter I can't tell.

Sadly I've not seen any more records so I cannot discuss further at the moment.

M

 

[Troyon1914]