Who Are they?

[Shayne]

Can someone tell me more about these pictures?  One I don't think is clear enough for any identification but thought I'd still try.  Thanks - Shayne

[PRC]

Something to get the conversation started on these three US soldiers.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

As we look at them:-

Left and centre are Corporals. The posture of the man in the centre hides where any rank markings should be seen on the man on the right.
All three have the four overseas chevrons indicating 24 months service. I can't be sure of the colours but I suspect its that ones that relate to France. See https://company-l.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/WWI-Soldier-Chevrons-Buttons-Medals.pdf

I don't know enough about US medals to be able to hazard a guess as to what the medal ribbons on display mean.

Man on the right had two wound stripes - the Purple Heart wasn't introduced until the 1930's.

Judging from the shape of their collar insignia, centre and right might have been in the same regiment, but too little detail to be sure.

Man on the left might be wearing a ring, but it is on the fourth finger of his right hand so not the traditional place for a wedding ring. No obvious wedding ring being worn by the other two.

Because of the tonal quality  and the folds of the jacket sleeves I'm finding it impossible to tell if its a trick of the light or whether any of them are wearing the red discharge chevron. That should be points upwards and halfway between elbow and shoulder on the left arm if they are.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[tankengine888]

Ah yes, 2 wound sripes! 

I did wonder whether the ribbon might be the Victory Medal; the campaign stars would block out the familiar pattern of the rainbow moiree ribbon.. It's also the only medal I could think that they would all be entitled to. It was established in February 1919 so I suppose a solid 'maybe', someone else would need to input their opinion on that.

Zidane.

[Shayne]

I have several photos I will be posting and the first question I have for all of them is 'what countries' uniform do they have on?' so this is a great start for me.  It is much easier for me to start researching if I know for sure because some of the photos came from my Ggrandfather that served in WWI and others from my Ggrandmother who came from Germany in 1923. Thank you for the start!

[tankengine888]

It's American mate, the Yankees, the Doughboys! (thats for the first two images)

It will be intriguing to see the future images you post.

Zidane.

[Shayne]

OK - I get the point, it's those crazy chaps from the other side of the pond - ***  

So, the one of the 3 men standing is also American soldiers?  From the uniform do you think they were from a Calvary Unit? Please pardon my ignorance - I am trying to learn!

Shayne

[tankengine888]

Oh sorry, I meant the two photos with the 3 soldiers are all American soldiers! Sorry if there was any confusion. I was jumping between my classes at the time

The group of three with their insignia [chevrons, medals, etc] shows that the man on the right is Infantry I think.. however that's at the unaided eye.

Zidane.

[PRC]

Forgot to add - if you are looking at 24 months worth of overseas service chevrons and assuming they were for service in France and either the subsequent occupation of Germany or the fighting in Russia, then the picture can't have been taken earlier then the middle of 1919. There would then be a limited window until they had done their 30 months and so qualified for another stripe, unless of course they returned to the US to serve.

Idnetification of which medal the ribbon is for may also help with the date.

Depending on the print method used, black and white film can be more sensitive to some colours to the extent that it almost reverses them.

Here's the Medal Ribbon for the US Victory Medal. It's the same as the one for the British Victory Medal, although the medal itself was of a different design.

The US also awarded battle clasps to be worn with the medal itself

Looking at the ribbons being worn certainly the corporal on the left appears to be wearing some kind of rosette and possibly the other two are as well.

The Wikipedia article on the US Victory Medal notes:-

Since battle and service clasps could only be worn on the full-sized World War I Victory Medal, 3/16 inch bronze service stars were authorized for wear on the award ribbon. This was the common method of campaign and battle display when wearing the World War I Victory Medal as a ribbon on a military uniform.

It also notes:-
The Citation Star to the World War I Victory Medal was authorized by the United States Congress on February 4, 1919.[1] A 3⁄16 inch silver star was authorized to be worn on the ribbon of the Victory Medal for any member of the U.S. Army who had been cited for gallantry in action between 1917 and 1920. In 1932, the Citation Star ("Silver Star") was redesigned and renamed the Silver Star Medal and, upon application to the United States War Department, any holder of the Silver Star Citation could have it converted to a Silver Star medal.

And while I don't think he is a US Marine it should be noted that:-
Medals issued to U.S. Marines were issued with a Maltese Cross device affixed to the ribbon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_Victory_Medal_(United_States)

The award of the medal was established in April 1919, and although the medals would not be sent out until 1921, the medals ribbons for wearing on the uniform are likely to have become available shortly after the medal was established.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

They are all American soldiers in the three images.  The uppermost and lowermost photos are quite early in the American WW1 effort as the dress is that common upon entry to the war, with cotton uniforms, lemon squeezer type ‘campaign hats’ and canvas gaiters. The lowermost photo shows a shirt rather than jacket and a backdrop typical of wooden construction in the US.  Taken in the States I think.

Conversely the middle photo shows woollen service uniform typical of that worn in Europe, and also the folding ‘overseas’ (later ‘garrison’) caps that were emulated as a direct result of contact with the French Army, who wore similar headdress when out of the line.  Canvas gaiters had been abandoned in favour of puttees.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

I know the round collar badges are fairly widespread throughout the US Army, so this is really one to check when the higher quality images become available. There is a possibility that the three men in the first, (and earlier), picture were in the same unit as the centre and right hand man in the second picture.

That in turn could possibly mean the man on the right hand end in both pictures could be the same individual, but a few years apart. Ear shape, (external and internal) along with eyebrows and eyes look comparable, but nostrils and below are where we really lose detail, particularly in the image believed to be earlier. The different angles of the head also makes it difficult to judge where the ear lobes and tips come relative to nostrils \ top lip and eyebrows.

All image rights on the above remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I know the round collar badges are fairly widespread throughout the US Army, so this is really one to check when the higher quality images become available. There is a possibility that the three men in the first, (and earlier), picture were in the same unit as the centre and right hand man in the second picture.

That in turn could possibly mean the man on the right hand end in both pictures could be the same individual, but a few years apart. Ear shape, (external and internal) along with eyebrows and eyes look comparable, but nostrils and below are where we really loose detail, particularly in the image believed to be earlier. The different angles of the head also makes it difficult to judge where the ear lobes and tips come relative to nostrils \ top lip and eyebrows.

All image rights on the above remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

 

I agree that the two side-by-side images, at bottom, are almost certainly the same man Peter.  Good spot! 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

Me too!  Great catch!  One more shuffle on my board (yes, a literal board that has taken over my office) and closer to who they are and if they served with my Ggrandfather!

Kudos guys!   Shayne

[PRC]

@Shayne

I hope you don't mind but I've taken the picture of your great grandfather that you posted here https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306214-us-soldiers-in-germany/#comment-3230692 and added it to the mix so if nothing else we can discount it as a possibility

All image rights on the above remain with the current owner.

Even allowing for the passage of time there is something about the eyebrows and ear shapes in all three, and eyelids, bridge of the nose and possibly mouth shape between the centre image and the one of your great-grandfather.

Of course it may be wishful thinking. And a wartime Battalion would consist of over a 1,000 men, and with the attrition of war there would more than a 1,000 individuals who might have served with it in total as replacement drafts arrived to replace those lost as dead, prisoner, wounded or long term sick. So the chances that one set of physical characteristics was unique enough to prevent mis-identification would be low. And that's of course assuming your great-grandfather stayed with one unit.

Still, will be interesting to see what the comparison looks like when the better quality images arrive.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

@Shayne

I hope you don't mind but I've taken the picture of your great grandfather that you posted here https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306214-us-soldiers-in-germany/#comment-3230692 and added it to the mix so if nothing else we can discount it as a possibility

All image rights on the above remain with the current owner.

Even allowing for the passage of time there is something about the eyebrows and ear shapes in all three, and eyelids, bridge of the nose and possibly mouth shape between the centre image and the one of your great-grandfather.

Of course it may be wishful thinking. And a wartime Battalion would consist of over a 1,000 men, and with the attrition of war there would more than a 1,000 individuals who might have served with it in total as replacement drafts arrived to replace those lost as dead, prisoner, wounded or long term sick. So the chances that one set of physical characteristics was unique enough to prevent mis-identification would be low. And that's of course assuming your great-grandfather stayed with one unit.

Still, will be interesting to see what the comparison looks like when the better quality images arrive.

Cheers,
Peter

The similarities between the centre and right photos, even allowing for the passage of time, are striking and I think you’re right that they’re all the same man Peter.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

What eyes everyone has! I agree - it would explain why he had the pictures too. He joined in 1910 - would the uniform in the first picture fit the time frame?

 

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Shayne said:

What eyes everyone has! I agree - it would explain why he had the pictures too. He joined in 1910 - would the uniform in the first picture fit the time frame?

 

Yes, perfectly so.  It’s the service dress (field uniform) used at the time of the border incursions as a result of the Mexican Revolution.  Pancho Villa, etc. where General Pershing cut his teeth.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

Well, I want you all to know this post of the comparison brought my mother to tears.  She was very close to this man since he lived with them.

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Shayne said:

Well, I want you all to know this post of the comparison brought my mother to tears.  She was very close to this man since he lived with them.

Please bear in mind that we can't be absolutely sure and we may never find the documentary evidence to give complete certainty. However I can't wait to see the better quality images to see if there are any more potential matches.

For now I've tried adding that unknown sergeant being separated from his child in "Coblenz" into the mix - the image coming from the same thread as the one of your great grandfather. It's low quality to start with and as he is kissing goodbye to the child it's an awkward angle. Nose seems a possible match but ear appears all wrong.

All image rights on the above remain with the current owner(s).

Cheers,
Peter

[Shayne]

On 25/08/2023 at 13:15, PRC said:

Please bear in mind that we can't be absolutely sure and we may never find the documentary evidence to give complete certainty. However I can't wait to see the better quality images to see if there are any more potential matches.

I am eagerly awaiting UPS box with all the original (maybe there is something on the back of the paper that will help) and I am going to begin research what paper it might have been in.  May be a couple days but I'll post as soon as I find something!

[PRC]

I'm much less convinced about this comparison so posting it for others to comments.

Could these three, taken in a photographic studio with a professional lens and adopting formal poses

Be these three in a much more informal setting, perhaps a social event like a dance, taken by photographer wandering through the crowd with a hand held camera and a lower quality lens. I'm also assuming this would have been taken when the three were a little bit younger.

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Edit  - second picture sourced Shayne's thread

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 27 August , 2023 by PRC
Add picture source

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, PRC said:

I'm much less convinced about this comparison so posting it for others to comments.

Could these three, taken in a photographic studio with a professional lens and adopting formal poses

Be these three in a much more informal setting, perhaps a social event like a dance, taken by photographer wandering through the crowd with a hand held camera and a lower quality lens. I'm also assuming this would have been taken when the three were a little bit younger.

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Edit  - second picture sourced Shayne's thread

Cheers,
Peter

Personally I’d say no Peter.  I’m fairly confident from examining their appearance that they are completely different men in the two scenes.

Edited 27 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

Here are the originals scanned in finally!

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Shayne said:

Here are the originals scanned in finally!

The uppermost photo of two men shows the right side man to be wearing a Type I collar disc of the US Army Ordnance Corps that one source says was introduced in 1924, but the table below shows 1917.  His upper arm badge is that of 3rd US Army, which subsequent to the Armistice became American Forces Germany (AFG) as part of the occupation forces along the River Rhine.  On his left arm are war service stripes and beneath are slanted army service stripes (aka ‘hash marks’) - one for each 3-years.  These are unusual, as they were only authorised for dress uniforms and not the service, or field uniform seen here.  It likely indicates a best jacket that’s been jazzed up in an unauthorised way and used by the soldier when socialising off post in Germany.
For collar insignia see also: https://hglanham.tripod.com/metalinsignia/collardisk1.html

The central photo shows three soldiers in the typical cotton field uniform, campaign hat and canvas leggings that were worn stateside at the beginning of the war.  The men have collar discs, but no other insignia, or stripes to mark service suggesting an early period in their service.  This basic uniform is the same as that worn by troops down on the Mexican border pre WW1.  The white neck cloths were probably to soak up perspiration in hot weather.

The lowermost photo shows two men of the 26th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Division, plus another from an undetermined unit.  The badge design was a 26 above crossed rifles with the company letter (which I can’t make out) below.  The example badge below shows Company E.  Interestingly the disc is itself mounted upon a piece of circular cloth in arm-of-service colours** that would have given a pleasing appearance (a popular practice in 3rd Army it seems and also worn behind insignia on the garrison cap).

The soldier at far right has two wound stripes on his right lower sleeve, and all three men have war service stripes on their left lower arms, which were at first constructed with gold bullion embroidery, but in May 1918 they switched to light blue thread, or felt (both were widely used).  Four stripes were apparently unusual and did not begin to appear until the early Summer of 1919 according to the Stars and Stripes newspaper.  Each one represented 6-months service.

Stars and Stripes Newspaper, Volume 1, Issue No. 3, February 22, 1918, page 1 - reads as follows:

“The war service chevron of gold and standard material and design is to be worn on the lower half of the left sleeve of all uniform coats except fatigue coats by each officer and enlisted man who has served for six months in the Zone of the Advance in the war, and an additional chevron will be worn for each six months of similar service thereafter. Officers and enlisted men of the Aviation Service on combat flying duty in Europe will be credited with the war service chevron with the time they may be on that duty.”

The 26th U.S. Infantry Regiment.

The 26th Infantry Regiment is an infantry regiment of the United States Army. Its nickname is "Blue Spaders", taken from the spade-like device on the regiment's distinctive unit insignia.  At the beginning of the 20th century, the United States Army was sorely pressed to meet its overseas commitments in Cuba, the Philippines, and Puerto Rico. As a result, in 1901 Congressauthorized five additional Regular Army infantryregiments; the 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th Infantry. 

As part of the first American soldiers to arrive in France, the 26th Regiment immediately left for the front. Along with its sister regiments of the division, it earned more campaign streamers than any other regiments during World War I. However, they came at a terrible cost. Over 900 Blue Spaders died in a six-month period. At Soissons alone, the regimental commander, executive officer, two of three battalion commanders and the regimental sergeant majorwere killed in action; sixty-two officers were killed or wounded; and of the 3,100 Blue Spaders that started the attack, over 1,500 had been killed or wounded. But the battle was won and this turned the tide for the Allies at a crucial period during the summer of 1918. By the war's end, the soldiers had earned seven battle streamers and two foreign awards. Following brief occupation duty in Germany, the regiment returned to the United States.

**light blue for infantry.

 

 

Edited 28 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@Shayne

Updated comparison of the picture of your great-grandfather in later life with the three images believed most likely to be him while serving. Not so sure about the man on the left now that we have a better defined image, but could be a combination of the angle the head is being held at and the intervening years.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[Shayne]

I will let you know once I get his military records to see if he would have had any stripes for being wounded!