Another - Who are they?

[Shayne]

As always any help is appreciated!

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Shayne said:

As always any help is appreciated!

They are all three US Army.  The uppermost appears to be an officer, whose uniform had a distinctive high and stiff collar when compared with the enlisted men.  However, I can’t quite make out any rank on his shoulders.

The central and lowermost soldiers are not officers, but wear the typical woollen uniform and puttees worn by the AEF once fully established in France.  No rank is discernible on the central soldier but he appears to have four service stripes on his left lower arm that might suggest a time after the Armistice, although I do not know offhand what the regulated criterion was.

The lowermost soldier appears to be a senior sergeant major with multiple stripes on his upper right arm.  He also has an escargot (snail) type whistle fastened externally to his top left pocket, which was typical of artillerymen, although that is not definite in this case as I cannot discern his collar insignia.  He too seems to have four or even five service stripes on his left lower arm and he carries a riding whip that ordinarily rules out dismounted arms.

The uppermost officer wears the cloth shoulder patch of the US 3rd Army.  His collar disc should show his specialism and if you can provide a close up it might well be possible to ascertain that.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

In photo 1, they look like crossed cannons so take your pick!

I would have thought that rank badges would have been visible had they been there?

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, PhilB said:

In photo 1, they look like crossed cannons so take your pick!

I would have thought that rank badges would have been visible had they been there?

 

 

Yes, and an officer jacket had a cuff ring so I’m wondering if sergeant majors of the highest (regimental) grade might also have had taller, officer style collars, and that is what we see.

Artillery would also chime with the lower photo.  Could they be the same man?

Key to below:

Left is the Officer's uniform and the right is the enlisted man's uniform

1 Grade/Rank Insignia 
2 U.S. Insignia 
3 Branch Insignia 
4 Current Parent Unit 
5 Skill Badges 
6 Service Ribbons of Decorations and Medals 
7 Marksmanship Badges 
8 Honorable Discharge Chevron 
9 Overseas Service Chevrons 
10 Wound Chevrons 
11 Officer Braid

 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes and an officer jacket had a cuff ring so I’m wondering if sergeant majors of the highest (regimental) grade might also have had taller, officer style collars, and that is what we see.

 

But then the arm stripes would have been very obvious?

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, PhilB said:

But then the arm stripes would have been very obvious?

The right arm in the upper photo is out of sight. 

[PhilB]

D J Daly, double Medal of Honor winner in 1900 and 1915, shows both arms to have stripes (or, at least, the left!). Were WW1 regulations in the field different?

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PhilB said:

D J Daly, double Medal of Honor winner in 1900 and 1915, shows both arms to have stripes (or, at least, the left!). Were WW1 regulations in the field different?

Check out the uniform chart that I posted above that shows examples Phil.

I was thinking of a photo that Peter commented upon earlier today, where a sergeant major of battalion had his rank only on the right arm and service stripes on the left arm.

I suspect it might have been both arms on dress uniforms, and one arm in khaki.  See: 

 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

That would explain it! I expect most senior NCO studio posers would choose to show primarily the other arm with the rank badges.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PhilB said:

That would explain it! I expect most senior NCO studio posers would choose to show primarily the other arm with the rank badges.

Yes it’s unusual, but I imagine the photographer encouraged the stance in profile, and there’s two possible personal reasons the sittter might have had for the side chosen, first that the service chevrons carried more weight (i.e. he’d smelled some cordite), and second most of us not perfectly formed have a good side for portrait photos…

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

After looking at the first and 3rd picture side by side I am beginning to think they are the same person.  Thoughts?

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Shayne said:

After looking at the first and 3rd picture side by side I am beginning to think they are the same person.  Thoughts?

Yes I did make the same suggestion above.

[Alisonmallen62]

Looks like 1 and 3 have the same two rings or at least they have two rings on one hand 

[Shayne]

Here are the originals scanned in finally. Not sure what more we can see but you all catch things I miss!  Good catch on the rings - you don't normally see pinky rings.  I'm going to try to blow up that part more.

[Shayne]

I think this is all the same man. Opinion?  At least the first 2 for sure.

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/09/2023 at 04:24, Shayne said:

Here are the originals scanned in finally. Not sure what more we can see but you all catch things I miss!  Good catch on the rings - you don't normally see pinky rings.  I'm going to try to blow up that part more.

With these better scans I can refine my earlier comments above with the following:

1.  Uppermost man is not an officer as I first thought he might be, but an enlisted man in a good quality tunic.  However there is one aspect that seems odd about him if my eyes do not deceive me when examining his collar disc.  His shoulder sleeve insignia is a 3rd Army and American Forces Germany badge as so many others in your collection are, and that is backed up by the circular cloth patch behind the collar disc as was favoured by 3rd Army.  However the disc itself seems to be for the 8th Infantry Regiment, Company L and yet the 8th Regiment was only activated in January 1918 and did not see actual war service, returning stateside quite soon after the Armistice.  However the soldier himself has three war service stripes, one for each 6-months of war service so 18-months in all.  He also has some odd piece of insignia above his left breast pocket that I do not recognise, but it has rounded ends and so is not a medal ribbon bar.  If he is 8th Infantry as it appears from his collar disc (?), then I’m unsure how he got to be in Germany.  The 8th Regiment had been assigned to the 8th Infantry Division in December 1917 and the latter did not apparently leave the United States so all-in-all it’s something of a conundrum.  Alternatively could it be 3rd US Infantry Regiment, Company I ?  That regiment was stationed in Texas from 1916 and throughout the remainder of the war.

2.  The central figure has lost his collar discs (the fastening hole can be seen) so it’s not possible to determine his unit.  We can however see that he’s not long affixed a fourth war service stripe to his earlier stack of three and that enables us to date the photo to early Summer 1919.

3.  Finally the lowermost soldier appears to me to be a Battalion Sergeant Major if I’ve accurately identified his badge of rank in silhouette**.  He also has the shoulder sleeve insignia of the 3rd Army / AFG.  I cannot make out his collar discs to identify a unit but he has a darker circular cloth patch behind them that might relate to the red arm-of-service colour of the artillery, given the traditional escargot whistle fastened to his left breast pocket.  He also appears to have two medal ribbons there.

**he could also be a Sergeant First Class with a branch insignia superimposed elongating the height of his rank badge.  This was an unauthorised modification but quite popular at the time and it does look in silhouette as if there’s some dark object on the stripes.

Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 hours ago, Shayne said:

I think this is all the same man. Opinion?  At least the first 2 for sure.

I don't see any resemblance Shayne. Sorry.

[Shayne]

10 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I don't see any resemblance Shayne. Sorry.

I was looking at the eyebrows and the ears and thought maybe... but that is why I threw it out there - you all have better eyes for clues and similarities than I do. I'm new to all this!  I wish there were military records with pictures tied to them. Guess there wasn't a big need for all the id's the military services have now.  

[Shayne]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Alternatively could it be 3rd US Infantry Regiment, Company I ?  That regiment was stationed in Texas from 1916 and throughout the remainder of the war

I think it is the 3rd US Infantry, Company I because my Ggrandfather was stationed in Galveston, Texas at one point but the picture says it was taken in Coblenz by H Menzel (?) so the 3rd would have had to have been in Germany?

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Shayne said:

I think it is the 3rd US Infantry, Company I because my Ggrandfather was stationed in Galveston, Texas at one point but the picture says it was taken in Coblenz by H Menzel (?) so the 3rd would have had to have been in Germany?

According to all the histories for the 3rd Infantry that I can find online they did not leave Texas.  I’m wondering if he was posted individually in some special role and did not change his collar insignia.  In seeking information I have been quite shocked how little detailed record there is of the US Army in WW1 compared with other conflicts.  I realise the US was comparatively a late (albeit important) arrival, but what information there is, is very sketchy.

Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

38 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In seeking information I have been quite shocked how little detailed record there is of the US Army in WW1 compared with other conflicts.

Indeed, and part of this stems from the fact that the US had its own 'Arnside' moment in 1973 when huge numbers of military records were destroyed:

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/fire-1973

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Indeed, and part of this stems from the fact that the US had its own 'Arnside' moment in 1973 when huge numbers of military records were destroyed:

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/fire-1973

That’s interesting Dai, I hadn’t realised that, thank you.

Do you see an 8 or a 3 on his collar disc?

Edited 30 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s interesting Dai, I hadn’t realised that, thank you.

Do you see an 8 or a 3 on his collar disc?

I'd say 8 myself.

[Alisonmallen62]

The first two photos could the first be a younger version of the second but with a wound/scarring?  It is likely the photo quality age etc but if the first two are the same man has one ear been damaged at the live and is that a scar on his cheek? 

Edited 30 September , 2023 by Alisonmallen62

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I don't see any resemblance Shayne. Sorry.

I should have qualified that by saying I don't see a resemblance of the man in the third picture to the first or second.
1 & 2 could be.