US Soldiers in Germany?

[Shayne]

As always, any information is helpful! 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Shayne said:

As always, any information is helpful! 

The American headquarters was located in Koblenz and I have a feeling that might possibly be the [artificial?] ‘backdrop’ to your photograph. 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I have a feeling that might possibly be the [artificial?] ‘backdrop’ to your photograph. 

It´s artifical but not Koblenz, I am afraid. It´s an artist´s impression of the Neroberg-Temple in WIesbaden as studio backdrop.

Best,

GreyC

Edited 24 August , 2023 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, GreyC said:

It´s artifical but not Koblenz. It´s an artistic rendering of the Neroberg-temple in WIesbaden.

Best,

GreyC

Thank you GreyC, I hoped you might know.  How does that place relate, if at all, to the area occupied by the US forces, which apparently was in the Mosel river valley region?  That said, I suppose if it’s an artificial backdrop then any photo studio could have used the image regardless of its location.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Wiesbaden was first part of the French -then of the British occupied zone.  Wiesbaden no longer had an active Casino (at which Dostojewsky lost a fortune and then wrote The Gambler) but was still a famous spa and a posh city and a popular place to visit.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Wiesbaden was first part of the French -then of the British occupied zone.  Wiesbaden no longer had an active Casino (at which Dostojewsky lost a fortune and then wrote The Gambler) but was still a famous spa and a posh city and a popular place to visit.

GreyC

Thank you, yes I can imagine how it might have become a popular place to visit.  Perhaps there was even a ‘leave centre’ established there.  I understand that sometimes arrangements were made with hotel proprietors for troops and / or officers (separate of course) to stay at preferential rates.  It must have been the beginnings of a renaissance after so many years of war.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

The name of the studio might be imprinted on the back? By the looks of it it ay also be a akeshift studio of an itinerant photographer who worked with instantaneous processes, like on funfairs. So you got your photo taken, did your round on the fair or drank a cuppa and then collected the photo as a souvenir after 15 minutes.

GreyC

Edited 24 August , 2023 by GreyC

[Interested]

Just out of interest...

The "fraternizing" looks interesting, so presumably this was taken after the Armistice; do you know how long the Americans stayed in the area (i.e. a possible end date for the photograph)?

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, GreyC said:

The name of the studio might be imprinted on the back? By the looks of it it ay also be a akeshift studio of an itinerant photographer who worked with instantaneous processes, like on funfairs. So you got your photo taken, did your round on the fair or drank a cuppa and then collected the photo as a souvenir after 15 minutes.

GreyC

That seema distinctly possible, I agree.  Those were innovative times with so many entrepreneurs trying to find a way to make a fast Buck (Reichmark!) and one can imagine lots of clever people living by their wits and opportunism.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Interested said:

Just out of interest...

The "fraternizing" looks interesting, so presumably this was taken after the Armistice; do you know how long the Americans stayed in the area (i.e. a possible end date for the photograph)?

The withdrawal was gradual, one region at a time (North, Centre, South, etc.) between 1926 and 1930.  All troops would have departed by 1931 if not before (rear parties and administrators tieing up loose ends) I should think.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

The American zone was occupied until end of November 1929, the area around Wiesbaden was occupied until end of June 1930.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, GreyC said:

The American zone was occupied until end of November 1929, the area around Wiesbaden was occupied until end of June 1930.

GreyC

Thank you GreyC, it’s useful to clarify dates.  It’s been my experience that end dates of military occupation are usually (at least in more recent times) quoted as when the last ‘major units’ leave and yet there’s often a small administrative rump remaining behind for a while clearing things up.  I don’t know if that was the case back then and in terms of subject photo it’s academic anyway.

NB.  I wonder if the two Americans were German speakers, there were more than a few who were as a result of sustained immigration to the US prewar.  One can imagine the American military authorities making use of them too.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I wonder if the two Americans were German speakers

Very well possible.

GreyC

[PRC]

Both men have two overseas service chevrons on their left cuffs, so 12 months service overseas, so possibly not serving in France and Germany for as long as the men in the other postwar picture you have posted here. Difficult to be sure if the colours are the same for both men - the man on the right may have been UK only during the conflict and then gone to Germany as part of the occupation forces.

I think it's a Battalion Sergeant Major on the left and he is also wearing a medal, possibly a US Victory Medal, but the man on the right isn't. Because of the way he is holding his arm it can't be seen what rank the man on the left is.

Can't make out the collar detail enough to tell if they are wearing unit badges. NCO on the left may be wearing a unit patch at the top of his left sleeve but too poorly defined to be able to be sure.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

Both men have two overseas service chevrons on their left cuffs, so 12 months service overseas, so possibly not serving in France and Germany for as long as the men in the other postwar picture you have posted here. Difficult to be sure if the colours are the same for both men - the man on the right may have been UK only during the conflict and then gone to Germany as part of the occupation forces.

I think it's a Battalion Sergeant Major on the left and he is also wearing a medal, possibly a US Victory Medal, but the man on the right isn't. Because of the way he is holding his arm it can't be seen what rank the man on the left is.

Can't make out the collar detail enough to tell if they are wearing unit badges. NCO on the left may be wearing a unit patch at the top of his left sleeve but too poorly defined to be able to be sure.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, it’s interesting to see the rank chevrons on the soldier at left of the viewer.

Both women seem remarkably well fed, which ostensibly suggests a time some years after the armistice when imports of food were beginning to recover following the end of the blockade.  No doubt access to American chocolate, etc. might have helped too.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

I can definitely see now the background has to be a 'backdrop', but I never thought of that since the poses were so casual and the one lady is turned around. Unfortunately, this is a copy and the original is being sent to me so I cannot look at the back.

The lady on the right sort of looks like my Ggrandmother but I can't be sure because of the hat, but I do not think the soldier she is with looks like my Ggrandfather though. I do know there was a lot of 'fraternizing' - enough so that my Ggrandfather came home with a bride and a child that wasn't his, but he claimed! I have included a newspaper clipping that my grandmother always claimed was her as a child .  I also know for sure the ladies were well fed if that is my Ggrandmother because she was a domestic in an affluent home and I am betting the other lady was also.  She thanks my Ggrandfather in several posts for food bundles he sent her with 'special treats' for his child.

[Interested]

IMO what we need is a 1920's fashionista to date those hats...

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Interested said:

IMO what we need is a 1920's fashionista to date those hats...

The soldiers service chevrons are a far more accurate indicator of date in this case.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Shayne]

I don't know how to edit my post from above so I am posting the newspaper clip here in case anyone is interested.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Shayne said:

I don't know how to edit my post from above so I am posting the newspaper clip here in case anyone is interested.

Very evocative and a reminder of the fraternisation, a deeply human response, that often follows with an occupation force after a war.  Interesting to see the first of the GI (more accurately ‘Doughboy’) brides. 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

11 hours ago, GreyC said:

By the looks of it it ay also be a akeshift studio of an itinerant photographer who worked with instantaneous processes, like on funfairs. So you got your photo taken, did your round on the fair or drank a cuppa and then collected the photo as a souvenir after 15 minutes.

We will probably never know but could be the April 1919 Carnival at Koblenz that features in another of @Shayne's threads - particularly if the great grandmother might be present but dating someone else!

Not sure about this though

2 hours ago, Shayne said:

I have included a newspaper clipping that my grandmother always claimed was her as a child .

In one of your other threads you said the man that married your great grandmother never got higher than Private, but according to the caption the soldier being separated from his German wife is a Sergeant. Do you have a date to the newspaper - how old would your grandmother have been then?

Cheers,
Peter

Cheers,
Peter

[GreyC]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

could be the April 1919 Carnival at Koblenz

I don´t think so. There were enough sites in Koblenz, more prominent than the Nero Temple of Wiesbaden eg the Deutsches Eck, Feste Ehrenbreiktstein, etc. that would have served as backdrop better. I am not aware of photostudios with sites of other cities as backdrops.

This photo was most certainly taken in Wiesbaden.

GreyC

Edited 24 August , 2023 by GreyC

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, GreyC said:

I don´t think so. There were enough sites in Koblenz, more prominent than the Nero Temple of Wiesbaden eg the Deutsches Eck, Feste Ehrenbreiktstein, etc. that would have served as backdrop better. I am not aware of photostudios with sites of other cities as backdrops.

If it was an itinerant photographer touring the country then could have been grateful for any backdrop he could get.

However let's hope there are more details on the back of the photograph when @Shayne receives it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Shayne]

After speaking to my Mother, I know now that my Ggrandfather was at least a Corporal at one point in his service.  She knows he was knocked down in rank more than once for brawling and drinking so this could be a misprint, or he was a Sergeant at that time.  I have no date for the paper - it is literally a scrap of paper!  My grandmother would have been 2 or 3 years old when he left Germany in 1923.  Based on my Ggrandfather's ears in this new pic when he was older, the age of the child and this pic of my Ggranmother we have always believed the story.  I don't even know of a paper that would have posted it in English. Were there military newspapers? Maybe there is somewhere I can research them in 1923... just a thought...

Again, thank you all for helping with this project even if I have gone past the military at times.  Everyone's input has sparked questions and paths I would have never thought to follow.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Shayne said:

 I don't even know of a paper that would have posted it in English. Were there military newspapers? Maybe there is somewhere I can research them in 1923... just a thought...

Yes there was a military newspaper, it was first instituted in 1861, continued ever since and has become iconic.  Its title is The Stars and Stripes and it had print runs throughout WW1, so there might well be relevant information within it.

Edited 25 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE