Photo Album - 1/4th Gloucestershire, Scottish Regiments. France, Italy, England.

[FROGSMILE]

And here are the Leslie tartan trews mentioned by gmac101.  Notice that the sett involves a double white horizontal line that does not appear in your photo, so the KOSB can be ruled out.

Edited 14 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

Nothing specific in the war diary. The 1/4th Gloucesters had moved back to billets in Orville on the 13th September 1916, then further back to Autheux by the 18th. There was a brigade conference on the 22nd at Bois Bergues.

Beyond that it seems lots of parading, company training and a steady influx of reinforcements. When they were relieved in trenches on morning of the 6th September by the 16th Notts and Derby, the battalion strength was 24 officers and 529 other ranks. By the time they went back and occupied trenches opposite Gommecourt on the 7th October they were up to 26 officers and 791 other ranks - though when they paraded on the 1st they had 830 other ranks. The number of officers constantly fluctuates in the mid-twenties throughout the month, so lots of comings and goings.

Edited 14 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[PRC]

8 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

YORKSHIRE 1918

29. - 'Lts Wisnutt + Ott. Ripon 1918'. I haven't been able to find any medal cards with the surname Wisnutt, and no officers named Ott in Scottish regiments.

30. - 'T McGill. Ripon 1918'. He appears to be 2/Lieutenant Thomas McGill, Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders.

The November 1918 British Army Monthly List show a 2^nd Lieutenant T. McGill with seniority from the 27^th June 1917 who was on the establishment of the 5^th Battalion – a Territorial Force unit. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105261

The Supplement to the edition of the London Gazette, 11 July, 1917, page 6965 shows Officer Cadet Thomas McGill receiving a Territorial Force commission as a 2^nd Lieutenant with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

And the most likely MiC for 2^nd Lieutenant Thomas McGill shows him landing in France on the 2^nd May 1918 to serve with the 5/6^th Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. When he applied for his medals in June 1922 he gave a contact address initially of 6 Achray Terrace, Cathkin Road, Langside, Glasgow, subsequently amended to 14 Cathkin Road, Langside, Glasgow.

If your timeline is correct and the pictures were taken at Ripon, that puts them either before he went out to France at the start of May 1918 or assumes he was either medically evacuated, convalesced and recovered, or was sent on a very specialist course in the UK - most officer training was done in Theatre.

 It would also be a likely indication that your album owner \ photo taker had been medically evacuated back to the UK – but unlike the evacuation from France I’m not sure how likely that was for men serving on the Italian Front.

Which then brings up the issue of timing if the right Thomas McGill has been identified. The album owner would have had to go to Italy, (November 1917?), been returned to the UK most likely on health grounds, and recovered enough to see service with Second Lieutenant Thomas McGill before that man was packed off to France.

I’m not sure the right unit has been identified for Thomas McGill – the 1/5^th were in the 52^nd (Lowland) Division and the 1/6^th were in the 5^th Division at the time he arrived in France, so difficult to imagine circumstances in which the two battalions would be amalgamated.

It may be worthwhile bearing in mind what the Long, Long Trail has to say about the 1/6^th (Renefrewshire) Battalion for this period.

12 June 1916 : transferred as Pioneer Battalion to 5th Division.
November 1917 : moved to Italy, but returned to France in April 1918.
5 October 1918 : converted back to infantry and transferred to 153rd Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-louises-argyll-sutherland-highlanders/

8 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

 Many have a small note penciled on the back mentioning the location and year, and some are named where people have been photographed.

I assume given the small area to write in there may be a possibility that Wisnutt and Ott may be a mis-transcription. Thinking of that while looking through the entry for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in the November 1918 British Army Monthly list I noted a a few instances of the surnames “Wishart” and “Orr”.

Most can be ruled out, having been Captains since 1916/1917. But that leaves:-

(1) 10^th Battalion Captain A.B. Wishart seniority 12^th August 1918 (Lieutenant 6^th Battalion*) Column 1527. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105261

*Because of the way it has been scanned on the National Library of Scotland site the reference to the 6^th Battalion has been lost. I have however confirmed the entry from the December 1918 edition.

·       Note he is a Territorial Force Officer temporarily on loan to a War Service only Battalion and holding a local promotion. Once he returns to his Territorial Force Battalion he will revert to the lower rank.

·       His Medal Index Card hows he was originally Private 2413 in the 9^th Battalion Highland Lighland. Commissioned in October 1915 he is shown as a Captain in the 3/6^th Battalion, A+ S.H.
The contact address on the MiC from January 1922 looks like 12 Largaurel Avenue, Dumbreck, Glasgow. (Google offers me Dargarvel Avenue, Dumbreck).

·       Supplement to the London Gazette, 9 October, 1915, page 10004 shows Private Andrew Brock Wishart, from The Highland Light Infantry to be a Second Lieutenant in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 10^th October 1915. The section starts on page 9999 amd relates to the Territorial Force. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29321/supplement/10004/data.pdf

·       Bio and picture here – places him at Ripon in June 1916, but by November 1916 was serving with the London Scottish. http://wishart1418.org/capt-andrew-brock-wishart-1893-1955/

Looking at that picture I’m seeing a slight similarity to the officer in picture 29 and the officer in picture 16. However when writing about picture 13 you also refer to a picture 17 as showing an officer having his picture taken with two VAD nurses on the edge of woodland – have the numbers got out of sync?

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

(2) 11^th Battalion, Lieutenant J. Orr, seniority 1^st July 1917. Column 1527a.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105261

·       The MIC for Lieutenant & Captain James Orr, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders shows him first landing in France on the 5^th September 1916. When he applied for his medals in September 1924 he gave an address of Leslie, Fife.

So could Ripon relate to 1916 rather then 1918?

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Typos and formatting (2) revise image attachment to include source

[gunnerwalker]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

If your timeline is correct and the pictures were taken at Ripon, that puts them either before he went out to France at the start of May 1918 or assumes he was either medically evacuated, convalesced and recovered, or was sent on a very specialist course in the UK - most officer training was done in Theatre.

 It would also be a likely indication that your album owner \ photo taker had been medically evacuated back to the UK – but unlike the evacuation from France I’m not sure how likely that was for men serving on the Italian Front.

Which then brings up the issue of timing if the right Thomas McGill has been identified. The album owner would have had to go to Italy, (November 1917?), been returned to the UK most likely on health grounds, and recovered enough to see service with Second Lieutenant Thomas McGill before that man was packed off to France.

 

All it says is 1918. The trees are not in leaf in the back ground of any of the four photos so it could definitely be early 1918 before T McGill left for France in the Spring. However, it could also be the end of 1918, but the LLT does not describe the activities of either the 1/5th or 1/6th A&S Highlanders at the end of the war. 

 

11 hours ago, PRC said:

I assume given the small area to write in there may be a possibility that Wisnutt and Ott may be a mis-transcription. Thinking of that while looking through the entry for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in the November 1918 British Army Monthly list I noted a a few instances of the surnames “Wishart” and “Orr”.

Yes, the owner has fairly hurried handwriting at times and has a precedent of phonetic spellings ("Cassell"/Castle). The way "Wisnutt" is written I can also see it as "Wishutt" which supports "Wishart" being correct. Not a surname I can recall encountering before so couldn't think of many alike to investigate. "Ott" again looks very much like "Orr" now you've said it. It looks like it's been written with cold fingers.

I imagine the phonetic spellings points to the owner having short acquaintances with some of the men photographed. Very happy to supply photos of the inscriptions if wanted. 

 

11 hours ago, PRC said:

·       Bio and picture here – places him at Ripon in June 1916, but by November 1916 was serving with the London Scottish. http://wishart1418.org/capt-andrew-brock-wishart-1893-1955/

...

So could Ripon relate to 1916 rather then 1918?

The "1918" is very clear on the back of the photo of T McGill. It's much more scribbled on "Wisnutt & Ott" but the photo paper and scenery seem consistent with being of the same time.

 

12 hours ago, PRC said:

Looking at that picture I’m seeing a slight similarity to the officer in picture 29 and the officer in picture 16. However when writing about picture 13 you also refer to a picture 17 as showing an officer having his picture taken with two VAD nurses on the edge of woodland – have the numbers got out of sync?

"However when writing about picture 13 you also refer to a picture 17 as showing an officer having his picture taken with two VAD nurses on the edge of woodland – have the numbers got out of sync?" -- I was referring here to one of the photos I didn't manage to buy, but described it a bit clumsily. It was a photo showing the two different men in pictures 13 and 17 with two nurses. I appreciate it might not have been easy to follow reading through with so many mentions of different photos and numbers.

Personally I don't see too much of a likeness between 16 and 29. I think the mouths are very different and 16 has a heavier brow. The photo on the left you've supplied, however, looks very alike 29. 

Thank you for all the information you've supplied Peter. It's very comprehensive and helped to fill in a lot of gaps.

Many thanks

Archie

[PRC]

12 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Personally I don't see too much of a likeness between 16 and 29. I think the mouths are very different and 16 has a heavier brow. The photo on the left you've supplied, however, looks very alike 29. 

Not a problem - these things are always subjective I was including 16 on the basis of the heavy lids to the eyes, shape of ears (outer as well as inner), hairline over his left ear, eyebrow shape by comparison to the Wishart org sourced picture - 29 makes it more difficult to make a comparison because of the angle the picture was taken at and the relaxed expression - but had doubts about the chin on image 16 versus the other two. Is that dimple, a trick of the light or just a flaw on the image?

The lips on all three are what they have least in common, but that could be down to a combination of camera angle, expression and circumstance - a man recovering from a painful wound might still be in some discomfort while being assisted with an exercise regime by two nurses for example and his mouth might well appear pursed \ drawn in.

There isn't enough discrepancies to rule image 16 out completely but I'm not gung-ho about it being the same man either.  And of course that all assumes the right match has been identified for the man in picture 29.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not a problem - these things are always subjective I was including 16 on the basis of the heavy lids to the eyes, shape of ears (outer as well as inner), hairline over his left ear, eyebrow shape by comparison to the Wishart org sourced picture - 29 makes it more difficult to make a comparison because of the angle the picture was taken at and the relaxed expression - but had doubts about the chin on image 16 versus the other two. Is that dimple, a trick of the light or just a flaw on the image?

The lips on all three are what they have least in common, but that could be down to a combination of camera angle, expression and circumstance - a man recovering from a painful wound might still be in some discomfort while being assisted with an exercise regime by two nurses for example and his mouth might well appear pursed \ drawn in.

There isn't enough discrepancies to rule image 16 out completely but I'm not gung-ho about it being the same man either.  And of course that all assumes the right match has been identified for the man in picture 29.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes lots of "oooh maybe"s when comparing the features. Agree about the hairline. The ears too are similar but not easy photos to compare due to light and positioning. Add to that the fact there could easily be a year of stress and exhaustion separating the two pictures, so your wound point is very valid.

[PRC]

21 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

2. An officer of the Gloucestershire Regiment posing in the ruins of a factory. Perhaps the same man as in photo 14?

Does this make a comparison any easier?

All images rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Does this make a comparison any easier?

All images rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

It does thank you. I'd previously thought the noses were very alike. The shape of the eye sockets and cheek lines look right too. Not clear in the factory image but the earlobes have a similar shape. Just wish I had a name.

[PRC]

22 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

3. - 'Lt. Andrews, left, Lt. Welsby, right'. 

Lt. Andrews I have been unable to confirm with certainty, though I strongly suspect my two candidates are the same person. 

The first is Frederick Dudley Andrews, MC. Of the 1/4th Battalion, he achieved the rank of Captain before he was killed in action on the 14th August 1917. Son of Thomas and Edith of Lichfield, Staffordshire. He was the husband of Gladys of Shustoke, Warwickshire. Buried at Track X Cemetary, St. Jean-les-Ypres. The awarding of his Military Cross was published in the London Gazette on 1st January 1917 (page 30 - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29886/supplement/44). His portrait is available on Lives of the First World War but it's not easy to match to this photo - https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/59019. 

The other consideration is Captain E. L. Andrews. I saw the name mentioned in Wyrall's 'The Gloucestershire Regiment' as being among the 1/4th casualties for August 1917, page 226. The details seem to line up but the name is different.

The Lives of the First World War webpage you linked to is coming up as not found. However there is a picture of Captain Frederick Dudley Andrews in the IWM Collections on Flickr. https://www.flickr.com/photos/imperialwarmuseum/11838610235

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, belong to the current owner

Other than possibly eyebrows and perhaps nose shape I’m not at all sure about a match.

There is a previous Great War Forum Thread on him

FindMyPast \ British Newspaper Archive are showing 13 matches in 1917 relating to Frederick, either because of the Military Cross or because of his death. I can’t check them out further as I don’t subscribe to either, but whats available in the free search is that a five of the pages include headshot photographs of someone – I cannot say for certain who.

Sample image courtesy FindmyPast.

If it does provide another example of an image to include in the comparison then may make it possible to make a more positive match \ rejection decision.

BTW – note the Staffordshire Advertiser report of the 25^th August 1917 refers to him as Frederick Dudley (Eric) Andrews – a possible source for the E.L. Andrews referred to by Wyrall?

Assuming you are living in the UK, then your local public library service is likely to subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive. You do need to be onsite using one of their computers and logged in with your library number, but after that it should be free to use within any time constraints imposed by your library. May be time to dust off your library card

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Uppermost officer is Royal Scots I think.

Lowermost officer is Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I suspect that they were perhaps in another brigade of the same division, or else from a neighbouring division in the same corps.

It was common for medal ceremonies (presentation of decorations) to be at the highest level gathering possible.  This might be a divisional, or even corps gathering, the intent being for all regiments and brigades to be inspired by not just their own activities and achievements but those of others.  It was to generate regimental pride and spirit.

I think I've found the link here. Both the Royal Scots and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders had more than one battalion in the 51st (Highland) Division.

The 1/9th Royal Scots and 1/7th A&S Highlanders were both in the 154th Brigade from March 1916 onwards. (1/8th Royal Scots were also in the 51st Division as a pioneer battalion and 1/8th A&S Highlanders were in the 152nd Brigade of the Division.)

The 1/4th Gloucesters were part of the 144th Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division, but were operating in the same area of the Somme as the 154th Brigade throughout the second half of 1916.

In mid-July the 144th fought at Ovillers-la-Boisselle and the 154th at Bazentin-le-Petit, 4 miles apart. In early November it was Le Sars and Beaumont-Hamel respectively, roughly 7 miles apart.

I'm sure it's during this July-November period I'd seen mention of the 1/4th Gloucesters being relieved by the A&S Highlanders, or vice versa, and what I think we might be seeing in the photos of the huts is them being in billets at the same time in mid-November.

-- --

EDIT. - The thought just occurred to me that this might then narrow down "J.Y.B." to being of either the 1/9th Royal Scots or 1/7th A&S Highlanders.

Edited 15 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[gunnerwalker]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Lives of the First World War webpage you linked to is coming up as not found. However there is a picture of Captain Frederick Dudley Andrews in the IWM Collections on Flickr. https://www.flickr.com/photos/imperialwarmuseum/11838610235

 

 

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, belong to the current owner

Other than possibly eyebrows and perhaps nose shape I’m not at all sure about a match.

 

There is a previous Great War Forum Thread on him

FindMyPast \ British Newspaper Archive are showing 13 matches in 1917 relating to Frederick, either because of the Military Cross or because of his death. I can’t check them out further as I don’t subscribe to either, but whats available in the free search is that a five of the pages include headshot photographs of someone – I cannot say for certain who.

 

 

 

Sample image courtesy FindmyPast.

If it does provide another example of an image to include in the comparison then may make it possible to make a more positive match \ rejection decision.

 

BTW – note the Staffordshire Advertiser report of the 25^th August 1917 refers to him as Frederick Dudley (Eric) Andrews – a possible source for the E.L. Andrews referred to by Wyrall?

 

Assuming you are living in the UK, then your local public library service is likely to subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive. You do need to be onsite using one of their computers and logged in with your library number, but after that it should be free to use within any time constraints imposed by your library. May be time to dust off your library card

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Thanks again Peter, excellent stuff. That IWM photo is the same one as on Lives of the First World War, not sure why the link isn't working though.

In terms of likeness, I think the head shape is similar but other than that the expressions and quality of the photos are so different it's very difficult.

I hadn't come across the inclusion of Eric as a middle name anywhere, so that's an interesting find. My nearest library is small, but I might be able to ask in there tomorrow if they've British Newspaper Archive access. I do know someone with a FMP subscription, so they might be able to do a lookup for me too...

In the meantime, I'll have a read through the previous thread on him.

[PRC]

On 14/10/2023 at 15:32, gunnerwalker said:

SPRING - WINTER 1916

3. - 'Lt. Andrews, left, Lt. Welsby, right'. 

The most likely match for Lt. Welsby I've been able to find is Cecil M. Welsby, who was initially a private in the Gloucestershire Yeomanry, regimental number 2182. He went with them to Egypt in 1915 but at some point was commissioned a 2/Lieutenant and joined the 1/4th Gloucestershire, later reaching the rank of Captain.

Given the believed time period I took a look at the January 1917 British Army Monthly list as that seemed the one most likely to pick him, assuming he hadn’t already died or been discharged.

The Index shows three individuals with the surname Welsby but only one serving with the Gloucestershire Regiment – C.M. Welsby. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103236193

He appears in column 1165, a Second Lieutenant on the establishment of the 4^th Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment, but serving with the 3/4^th Battalion and with a date of seniority. (which for a 2^nd Lieutenant is almost certain to be his commissioning date), of the 21^st July 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103214185

There can be a time delay in changes appearing in the Monthly Army List but I suspect you would need to check any surviving officers long papers at Kew to find out when he went to France – his MiC, (as Cecil Marson Welsby) showing date of first landing in Egypt, 20^th April 1915, probably reflects his service in the ranks. Unfortunately the National Archive online catalogue isn’t showing any matches for offices papers, so he may have continued to serve after the war.

Just checking him out via a free account on Ancestry and looks like there are two MiCs.

One for the 1914/15 Star only shows him first landing Theatre (3) Egypt 24^th April 1915 and commissioned “24^th May 1916”, as Cecil M. Wilsby. Back of the card is blank.

The other as Cecil Marson Welsby has him landing Egypt 20^th April 1915. When he applied for his medals in 1922 he gave a contact address of the Bristol Liberal Club, Corn Street, Bristol.

All MiC images courtesy Ancestry.

His commissioning as Cadet Cecil Marson Welsby into the Territorial Force effective 21^st July 1916 appears on page 7331 of the Supplement to the London Gazette, 24 July, 1916. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29678/supplement/7331/data.pdf

Cecil attended the Bristol Grammar School and appears on their Roll of service for the Great War. The entry on page 341 shows him as attending the school 1894-1899 but only refers to his service in the ranks with the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars. https://issuu.com/bristolgrammarschool/docs/roll_of_service

The Bristol Grammar School website adds he was born on the 25^th June 1883, but has him serving as a Captain with the Gloucestershire Yeomanry. https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/t-z

The school has an archivist, so might be worth contacting them to see if they have any pictures of Cecil that could be used to make a comparison. If not, and it can otherwise be shown the right man has been identified, then they might well appreciate a copy of your picture. https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/about-us-1

 

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 15 October , 2023 by PRC
Formatting

[gunnerwalker]

Thanks Peter this is all wonderful. I've emailed Bristol Grammar School. My work's head office is on Corn Street, but the only iteration of the Bristol Liberal Club I can find seems to have moved out of the centre to St. George. Being born in 1883 would put him in his thirties, and he looks about that.

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

He appears in column 1165, a Second Lieutenant on the establishment of the 4^th Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment, but serving with the 3/4^th Battalion and with a date of seniority. (which for a 2^nd Lieutenant is almost certain to be his commissioning date), of the 21^st July 1916.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103214185

There can be a time delay in changes appearing in the Monthly Army List but I suspect you would need to check any surviving officers long papers at Kew to find out when he went to France – his MiC, (as Cecil Marson Welsby) showing date of first landing in Egypt, 20^th April 1915, probably reflects his service in the ranks. Unfortunately the National Archive online catalogue isn’t showing any matches for offices papers, so he may have continued to serve after the war.

Just checking him out via a free account on Ancestry and looks like there are two MiCs.

One for the 1914/15 Star only shows him first landing Theatre (3) Egypt 24^th April 1915 and commissioned “24^th May 1916”, as Cecil M. Wilsby. Back of the card is blank.

The other as Cecil Marson Welsby has him landing Egypt 20^th April 1915. When he applied for his medals in 1922 he gave a contact address of the Bristol Liberal Club, Corn Street, Bristol.

I must admit the two MIC confused me at first but I concluded them to most likely be the same person. 

With regards to the dates of his commission, that would surely make sense. If the photo of him is late-September 1916 (even anywhere in summer/autumn that year) that would give time for him to be in England with the 3/4th Reserve and eventually be assigned to the front line battalion when they required. As mentioned previously in the thread, the 1/4th took on lots of reinforcements through September after the fighting on the Somme in July and August. Stands to reason he could have been one of them.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

I think I've found the link here. Both the Royal Scots and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders had more than one battalion in the 51st (Highland) Division.

The 1/9th Royal Scots and 1/7th A&S Highlanders were both in the 154th Brigade from March 1916 onwards. (1/8th Royal Scots were also in the 51st Division as a pioneer battalion and 1/8th A&S Highlanders were in the 152nd Brigade of the Division.)

The 1/4th Gloucesters were part of the 144th Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division, but were operating in the same area of the Somme as the 154th Brigade throughout the second half of 1916.

In mid-July the 144th fought at Ovillers-la-Boisselle and the 154th at Bazentin-le-Petit, 4 miles apart. In early November it was Le Sars and Beaumont-Hamel respectively, roughly 7 miles apart.

I'm sure it's during this July-November period I'd seen mention of the 1/4th Gloucesters being relieved by the A&S Highlanders, or vice versa, and what I think we might be seeing in the photos of the huts is them being in billets at the same time in mid-November.

-- --

EDIT. - The thought just occurred to me that this might then narrow down "J.Y.B." to being of either the 1/9th Royal Scots or 1/7th A&S Highlanders.

The seated A&SH officer wearing a kilt is indeed a Territorial, as one can see the T beneath his right side collar badge, so that fits with your hypothesis.  The Royal Scots is less clear though, as in all images I can find the pale horizontal sett does not exceed four lines, but your first photo showing a man in trews has five, or possibly even six horizontal lines of a pale shade.  At first I thought Royal Scots, because those lines seemed a darker shade than white would appear.  White lines are a feature of the alternative Mackenzie tartan.  Thus five or six horizontal lines would suggest the latter and thus the Highland Light Infantry (HLI).  See HLI officer below as a comparison.

Edited 15 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 14/10/2023 at 15:34, gunnerwalker said:

4. - 'Lt. Stone, left, E.M. Matthews, right, killed in action 10/11/16'.

5. - 'Stone, left, Matthews, right'. A much clearer photo showing the same men as in photo 4. 

I've found two Lieutenant Stones for the 1/4th Gloucestershire Regiment. The first looked to be R. E. Stone, mentioned in the Battalion War Diary as being of D Company, though it's handwritten and not easy to decipher. I can't find any medal card matching this name. 

The second and most likely is Frederick J. Stone, previously 2317 Lance Corporal. His date of entry on 31st March 1915 matches the day 1/4th Gloucesters arrived in France.

While I had the January 1917 British Army Monthly list still open I took a look for officers with the surname Stone associated with the 4^th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment.  Of course what that won’t tell me is if he was attached to the 4^th from another Battalion of the Glosters, or even from another Regiment, plus of course those who had died or been transferred elsewhere previously.

The only match is 2^nd Lieutenant F.J. Stone in column 1165a, commissioned on the 5^th September 1916 and then shown on the books of the 3/4^th Battalion. I’m assuming the War Diary of the 1/4^th Battalion doesn’t helpfully record the likes of 2/Lt Stone arriving with the Battalion?

A check of the 4^th Battalion officer establishment doesn’t show anyone with the forename initials R.E. with a surname that could possibly be mis-heard \ mis-written as Stone – the nearest are a 2nd Lieutenant R.W.E Bunn, (commissioned 5^th September 1916) and 2^nd Lieutenant R. Stallon, (commissioned 25^th October 1916), both then shown with the 3/4^th.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103214185

Fredericls’ MiC shows him commissioned on the 4^th September 1916, but this is a common scenario on the cards for men commissioned from the ranks. The 4^th would have been the day he was released from his enlistment in order to take up his commission on the 5^th.

When he applied for his medals the contact address given was 4 Woodland Terrace, Redland, Bristol.

It looks like Ancestry have indexed the associated medal rolls as Frederick J. Stone as well.

The Bristol Grammar School website shows two ex-students with the same name – Frederick James Stone. One died on the 29^th December 1916 serving as a Captain with the 7^th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment in Meopotamia, so I think can be ruled out. The other Frederick James Stone “was born on 18/12/1891, and attended the School from 1903-1906. He served as a Lieutenant in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment 4th Bn.. He was awarded the Military Cross.” https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/q-s

So again might be worth contacting the School Archivist.

 

 All image rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The seated A&SH officer wearing a kilt is a Territorial as one can see the T beneath his right side collar badge so that fits with your hypothesis.  The Royal Scots is less clear though as in all images I can find the pale horizontal sett does not exceed four lines but your first photo showing a man in trews has five or possibly even six horizontal lines of a pale shade.  At first I thought Royal Scots, because those lines seemed a darker shade than white would appear.  White lines are a feature of the alternative Mackenzie tartan.  Thus five or six horizontal lines would suggest the latter and thus the Highland Light Infantry (HLI).  See HLI officer below as a comparison.

Thanks FROGSMILE. You may be right with that. My chap's collar badges also would appear to be a closer shape to Highland Light Infantry than Royal Scots of the two. He seems to be an outlier. No Highland Light Infantry battalions to be found in the 51st Division either. Wherever the house was there was an assortment of units represented that day.

[gunnerwalker]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

The only match is 2^nd Lieutenant F.J. Stone in column 1165a, commissioned on the 5^th September 1916 and then shown on the books of the 3/4^th Battalion. I’m assuming the War Diary of the 1/4^th Battalion doesn’t helpfully record the likes of 2/Lt Stone arriving with the Battalion?

No the war diary only gives the numbers of men per day, no names. It definitely increases throughout September. The 1/4th went back into the front line in the first week of October after almost a month's rest in billets. I'm not sure exactly how quickly these things work but could an officer be newly commissioned and then with his service battalion in two weeks? The time and place fit for the battalion to be needing them. Unless, if he was commissioned from the ranks as you suggest, he was already there.

One thing I did also notice in the link you provided to the 4th Gloucesters officers list was that a large proportion of officers attached from other regiments came from the Shropshire Light Infantry. Was it common for particular regiments to have especially strong links and loan a large amount of officers to one receiving regiment? I'd have thought the Army would try to spread it out.

 

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Bristol Grammar School website shows two ex-students with the same name – Frederick James Stone. One died on the 29^th December 1916 serving as a Captain with the 7^th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment in Meopotamia, so I think can be ruled out. The other Frederick James Stone “was born on 18/12/1891, and attended the School from 1903-1906. He served as a Lieutenant in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment 4th Bn.. He was awarded the Military Cross.” https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/q-s

So again might be worth contacting the School Archivist.

Again, two identical names which muddied the waters when I looked into him. I discounted the F.J. Stone who served in Mesopotamia, but when cross-referencing with other sources it wasn't always easy to tell which one they were referring to if they didn't have lost of information. Lots of these officers ending up with an MC...

[PRC]

On 14/10/2023 at 15:34, gunnerwalker said:

4. - 'Lt. Stone, left, E.M. Matthews, right, killed in action 10/11/16'.

5. - 'Stone, left, Matthews, right'. A much clearer photo showing the same men as in photo 4. 

The other officer is Lieutenant Edwin Martin Matthews. He was born in Islington in 1879, the third of four children to Edwin and Caroline Matthews. Before the war he was employed as a tea agent, presumably at the nearby Avonmouth Docks. He lived in Portbury outside Bristol with his wife Emily and their three children. A Territorial officer, he arrived in France on 17th August 1916. The date of his death is incorrect on the back of the photo, as he was actually killed in action on 8th November 1916 while the battalion held trenches just north of Le Sars, aged 37. His death is mentioned in the Battalion War Diary, implying he was killed by artillery, and he is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

By the time Lieutenant Edwin Martin Matthews died his wife appears to have been living at The Firs, Malton-in-Cleveland, (BNA\FMP shows a death notice in the Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough 14 November 1916, while a daughters’ wedding report in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer 3^rd September 1930 records her parents as the late Captain Edwin Matthews and Mrs. Matthews of that address.)

CWGC under additional information shows husband of Emily Ethel Matthews, of "The Firs," Marton, Yorks. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/805415/edwin-martin-matthews/

No obvious entry in the Probate Calendar for him.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

So interesting how he has a memorial plaque in St. Mary’s Church, Portbury, Somerset – I can only assume another member of the family was still a member of the congregation. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2971801

It looks from the 1911 Census of England & Wales that the Matthews family were recent arrivals in the area. Edwin M. Matthews, a Tea Agent employed by a Tea & Coffee Merchant and born Holloway, London, was the 32 year old head of the household at The Orchard, Portbury, Somerset.

He lived there with his wife of 6 six years, the 28 year old Emily E., born Middlesbrough, Yorkshire. The union had so far produced two children. both then still alive. At some point between the birth of Nancy M., (aged 5, born York), and the birth of Betty V., (aged 1, born Portbury), the family had moved to the area. Edwins’ sister Marion C., (aged 22, born New Southgate, North London) was living with them, and the household was supported by one live in servant.

Going back to the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 22 year old Edwin M. Matthews, a Tea Taster born Holloway, London, was recorded as the head of a household living at Hadley High Stone, Monkton Hadley, Hertfordshire. Living with him are three of his teenage siblings, Alfred, (17, born Finsbury Park) and Constance (14) and Marion, (12) both born New Southgate. Their housekeeper is their 39 year old Godmother, Louisa Brady, from Doncaster, Yorkshire.  

I suspect Grammar School rather than Public School, but for now which one remains a mystery and with it any chance of identifying the relevant archive that might hold a picture of him to help confirm the right man has been identified.  

 

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

By the time Lieutenant Edwin Martin Matthews died his wife appears to have been living at The Firs, Malton-in-Cleveland, (BNA\FMP shows a death notice in the Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough 14 November 1916, while a daughters’ wedding report in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer 3^rd September 1930 records her parents as the late Captain Edwin Matthews and Mrs. Matthews of that address.)

 

CWGC under additional information shows husband of Emily Ethel Matthews, of "The Firs," Marton, Yorks. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/805415/edwin-martin-matthews/

 

No obvious entry in the Probate Calendar for him.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

 

So interesting how he has a memorial plaque in St. Mary’s Church, Portbury, Somerset – I can only assume another member of the family was still a member of the congregation. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2971801

 

It looks from the 1911 Census of England & Wales that the Matthews family were recent arrivals in the area. Edwin M. Matthews, a Tea Agent employed by a Tea & Coffee Merchant and born Holloway, London, was the 32 year old head of the household at The Orchard, Portbury, Somerset.

 

He lived there with his wife of 6 six years, the 28 year old Emily E., born Middlesbrough, Yorkshire. The union had so far produced two children. both then still alive. At some point between the birth of Nancy M., (aged 5, born York), and the birth of Betty V., (aged 1, born Portbury), the family had moved to the area. Edwins’ sister Marion C., (aged 22, born New Southgate, North London) was living with them, and the household was supported by one live in servant.

 

Going back to the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 22 year old Edwin M. Matthews, a Tea Taster born Holloway, London, was recorded as the head of a household living at Hadley High Stone, Monkton Hadley, Hertfordshire. Living with him are three of his teenage siblings, Alfred, (17, born Finsbury Park) and Constance (14) and Marion, (12) both born New Southgate. Their housekeeper is their 39 year old Godmother, Louisa Brady, from Doncaster, Yorkshire.  

 

I suspect Grammar School rather than Public School, but for now which one remains a mystery and with it any chance of identifying the relevant archive that might hold a picture of him to help confirm the right man has been identified.  

 

 

 

 

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

 

I had come across the plaque in my research; I agree strange that it's there if he was only living in the area a few years and his family had gone by that point. Lots of moving about for him and his family, and quite some distances too. When I only knew of him living in Portbury I'd assumed he'd been a Territorial before his overseas service mostly due to his age, and that he'd been in a reserve battalion until reinforcements were needed - but given they lived all over the place it now seems more unlikely.

[PRC]

5 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

One thing I did also notice in the link you provided to the 4th Gloucesters officers list was that a large proportion of officers attached from other regiments came from the Shropshire Light Infantry. Was it common for particular regiments to have especially strong links and loan a large amount of officers to one receiving regiment? I'd have thought the Army would try to spread it out.

That threw me for a moment as I couldn’t see the source for that statement in the link to the 4^th Battalion Officers establishment in the January 1917 British Army List.

But then I flipped over the page and saw you were looking at the attached list in column 1165b. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103214197

Of the 25 individuals shown, (1 Lieutenant, 24 2^nd Lieutenants):-
6 are Kings Shropshire Light Infantry, all shown serving with the 1/4th
8 are Highland Light Infantry, all shown as serving with the 1/4th
6 are Northamptonshire Regiment, all shown as serving with the 2/4^th .
3 are Lancashire Fusiliers, all shown as serving with the 2/4^th.
2 are Royal Irish Rifles, both serving with the 2/4^th

So looks like the Battalion was bringing in surplus officers from all over the country, probably when they were short of suitable officers for frontline service, while at other times it would have its’ own surplus that would be redistributed. The 2/4th attached Officers could well be being held to make up the next replacement draft.

The 8 Highland Light Infantry officers would presumably be prime candidates for the officer in trews that has been discussed.

5 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

I'm not sure exactly how quickly these things work but could an officer be newly commissioned and then with his service battalion in two weeks? The time and place fit for the battalion to be needing them. Unless, if he was commissioned from the ranks as you suggest, he was already there.

Commissioned on the field for an act of bravery was an exceedingly rare event and thats the only way he would already "be there". They would almost certainly have gone through the new officer training system put in pace to supplement the supply provided in peacetime by the exisiting Royal Military College and the Royal Military Academy, At first a mix of with the regiment training mixed with short coursesthen inceasingly these became residental courses away from the regiment. The system in the opening months of the war of commissioning a chap from the right background, most of them hopefully have been Officer Training Corps members at Public School \ Grammar School \ University and then giving them training in time gave way to officer cadets who had to successfully pass their course before being commissioned.  Taking Welsby as an example I suspect the reason that his 1914/15 Star medal card shows him as "commissioned" 24th May 1916 while the London Gazette and the Army Lists show 21st July 1916 is that the earlier date was when he was released to commence officer training. Even after commissioning there would still be specialist courses to go on before going to the front-line. By the last two years of the war an infantry officer training course was taking 18 weeks, and that was for those who passed every element first time.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 15 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

Thanks FROGSMILE. You may be right with that. My chap's collar badges also would appear to be a closer shape to Highland Light Infantry than Royal Scots of the two. He seems to be an outlier. No Highland Light Infantry battalions to be found in the 51st Division either. Wherever the house was there was an assortment of units represented that day.

Both sets of collar badges, Royal Scots and Highland Light Infantry, were roughly diamond shaped.  Unfortunately the photos are all rather poor quality from a pocket camera rather than the glass plate images that we are more usually spoilt with.

The gilt and white metal type were unique to the 4th and 5th Battalions Royal Scots.

Edited 15 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

FindMyPast \ British Newspaper Archive are showing 13 matches in 1917 relating to Frederick, either because of the Military Cross or because of his death. I can’t check them out further as I don’t subscribe to either, but whats available in the free search is that a five of the pages include headshot photographs of someone – I cannot say for certain who.

 

 

 

Sample image courtesy FindmyPast.

If it does provide another example of an image to include in the comparison then may make it possible to make a more positive match \ rejection decision.

BTW – note the Staffordshire Advertiser report of the 25^th August 1917 refers to him as Frederick Dudley (Eric) Andrews – a possible source for the E.L. Andrews referred to by Wyrall?

 

From the Birmingham Daily Mail, 18th August 1917.

 

From the Staffordshire Advertiser, 25th August 1917. 

 

From The Staffordshire Mercury, 2nd January 1942.

 

He's also mentioned in an article from the Western Daily Press in Bristol, from the 15th February 1915, which confirms "Private Frederick Dudley Andrews" as one of 10 enlisted men in the 1/4th Gloucesters receiving a commission on the 14th February 1915. Frederick's MIC gives his regimental number as 2 when he was a private.

On the next line beneath is "Lance-Corpl. Henry Geo. Phippen", though his MIC makes no mention of his service as an enlisted man.

On the same page as all local military updates are the football results for that week - Bolton Wanderers beat Milwall 4-1 in the FA Cup while Middlesbrough upped Tottenham 7-5! Quite the contrast on one page.

Edited 15 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[gunnerwalker]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Both sets of collar badges, Royal Scots and Highland Light Infantry, were roughly diamond shaped.  Unfortunately the photos are all rather poor quality from a pocket camera rather than the glass plate images that we are more usually spoilt with.

You're right, I was being a wally and looking at the bugle of a HLI shoulder title.

[gunnerwalker]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

The 8 Highland Light Infantry officers would presumably be prime candidates for the officer in trews that has been discussed.

Quite true. In the morning I shall try and go through them and search for any matching images.

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Commissioned on the field for an act of bravery was an exceedingly rare event and thats the only way he would already "be there". They would almost certainly have gone through the new officer training system put in pace to supplement the supply provided in peacetime by the exisiting Royal Military College and the Royal Military Academy, At first a mix of with the regiment training mixed with short coursesthen inceasingly these became residental courses away from the regiment. The system in the opening months of the war of commissioning a chap from the right background, most of them hopefully have been Officer Training Corps members at Public School \ Grammar School \ University and then giving them training in time gave way to officer cadets who had to successfully pass their course before being commissioned.  Taking Welsby as an example I suspect the reason that his 1914/15 Star medal card shows him as "commissioned" 24th May 1916 while the London Gazette and the Army Lists show 21st July 1916 is that the earlier date was when he was released to commence officer training. Even after commissioning there would still be specialist courses to go on before going to the front-line. By the last two years of the war an infantry officer training course was taking 18 weeks, and that was for those who passed every element first time.

Rightio. Thank you for all this Peter, the info is excellent and very detailed. I've learned a lot today.

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

From the Staffordshire Advertiser, 25th August 1917. 

Newspaper image of Captain Frederick Dudley Andrews looks like a printers block version of the photograph held by the Imperial War Museum.

There is an F.D. Andrews on the Great War Memorial in the Chapel at Rossall School https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/42680

Unfortunately links to the school archive, such as https://archive.rossall.org.uk all just seem to time out.

According to that January 1917 British Army Monthly List, 2nd Lieutenant F.D. Andrews was locally promoted Captain effective 13th September 1916, which presumably provides a date before which the picture needs to have been taken if he is the same man in your photograph number 3

Cheers,
Peter