Photo Album - 1/4th Gloucestershire, Scottish Regiments. France, Italy, England.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

WHY IN THE BLAZES did I not clock this as I was writing it. Photo 10 is inscribed "J.B.Y.". 

Here is another HLI officer wearing a similar format of uniform and trews for comparison.  Notice the six rows of horizontal pale lines and that the matching vertical line is aligned with the front crease, these were all HLI features. In the lower photo bronze collar badges are worn, it varied between battalions.

Edited 17 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

24 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

WHY IN THE BLAZES did I not clock this as I was writing it. Photo 10 is inscribed "J.B.Y.".

Cunning piece of mis-direction there young Gunner - I will immediately stop all searches for "J.Y.B" and instead suggest it may be this man.

Image courtesy Ancestry

His AIR76  record as an RAF officer is one of those documents on the National Archive site that can currently be downloaded for free. The catalogue entry for him shows him as born 16th February 1897 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8245134

Cheers,
Peter

 

[GWF1967]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

For me, all these photographs show the same man. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Cunning piece of mis-direction there young Gunner - I will immediately stop all searches for "J.Y.B" and instead suggest it may be this man.

Image courtesy Ancestry

His AIR76  record as an RAF officer is one of those documents on the National Archive site that can currently be downloaded for free. The catalogue entry for him shows him as born 16th February 1897 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8245134

Cheers,
Peter

 

Superlative work Peter!  I reckon that’s him alright.  He must’ve had a large wardrobe of uniforms by the end of 1918…

Edited 17 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

Cunning piece of mis-direction there young Gunner - I will immediately stop all searches for "J.Y.B" and instead suggest it may be this man.

Image courtesy Ancestry

His AIR76  record as an RAF officer is one of those documents on the National Archive site that can currently be downloaded for free. The catalogue entry for him shows him as born 16th February 1897 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8245134

Cheers,
Peter

 

I was just typing the exact same thing.

There's also an MIC for a John Young - no middle name - but he's recorded as 5th Highland Light Infantry on the card. The J. B. Young on the Jan 1917 Army List is also 5th HLI so perhaps they're the same person. There's something noted at the top of John Young's MIC which looks to mention a J. B. Young but I can't quite make it out in the black and white version. Perhaps two cards for the same person? Is it possible given the several changes in service branch? I note the one you supplied names the Air Ministry as the issuer.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6055973

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

I was just typing the exact same thing.

There's also an MIC for a John Young - no middle name - but he's recorded as 5th Highland Light Infantry on the card. The J. B. Young on the Jan 1917 Army List is also 5th HLI so perhaps they're the same person. There's something noted at the top of John Young's MIC which looks to mention a J. B. Young but I can't quite make it out in the black and white version. Perhaps two cards for the same person? Is it possible given the several changes in service branch? I note the one you supplied names the Air Ministry as the issuer.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6055973

It means he was serving with the RFC at the time that the medals were introduced, and he was authorised as an eligible recipient.

Edited 17 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It means he was serving with the RFC at the time that the medals were introduced, and he was authorised as an eligible recipient.

I see. Thank you.

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Superlative work Peter!  I reckon that’s him alright.  He must’ve had a large wardrobe of uniforms by the end of 1918…

Further observations - the MIC gives him as John Barris, his RAF papers as John Barrie.

He comes from Helensburgh, Argyll and Bute - we've come full circle to the Argyll & Sutherlands!

The date given for passing fit as a pilot is the 14th February 1918. Perhaps this is why he finds himself in Ripon in 1918?* I saw today in a different thread you commented on how large the size of the camp was @FROGSMILE. Would it accommodate air force personnel/training at that point?

---

EDIT. * Unless it isn't his photo album. He appears a lot though, and strange that he's the only man referred to by initial only.

Edited 17 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[PRC]

1 minute ago, gunnerwalker said:

MIC gives him as John Barris

The MiC has been recorded in the National Archive catalogue as John Barris Young but as you can see from the card it could be Barris or Barrie. No intelligence or cross-referencing would have been applied to that cataloguing. Ancestry have his MiC indexed as John Barrie Young - although his units include the Royal Automobile Club apparently

The note across the top of the MiC for the Lieutenant John Young of the 5th Battalion reads that he is "Not identical with J.R. Young EF/8/6597 Authy Min.B." When he applied for his British War Medal only, (so served overseas but not in a Theatre of War), in June 1921, he gave an address of 14 Cathedral Square, Dennistoun, Glasgow".
He seems to be a completely different individual.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

BTW - if you have had an Ancestry account in the past but no longer subscribe, you are likely to have a free account using your log-in. One of the few military documents you can see with a free account is the MiC's. And by drilling down into the Military records categories it can be possible to glean more information, although no where near as much as subscription will grant you. A free account also means you're already good to go should Ancestry announce a free access period - the upcoming Remembrance period is a potential period for such access. Sometimes that opens the way to Ancestrys' US sister site Fold 3, which allows you to log in with your Ancestry details if they give free accress at the same time. Oddly the reproduction of records on Fold 3 is usually better, even though you would have thought they were using the same storage source. It also is the home of the Pension Ledger cards, for which there is only basic transcript on Ancestry.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

The catalogue entry for him shows him as born 16th February 1897

Scotlands People is showing the birth of a John Barrie Young, mothers' maiden name McNeill recorded in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District in 1897.

I only have access to a very basic transcription of the 1901 Census of Scotland but that shows a 4 year old John B. Young, born Shandon, Dunbartonshire, who was recorded at John Street, Helensburgh. This was the household of parents David Jackson Young, (43, a Stockbroker, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire) and Janet, (aged 38, born Sandbank, Argyllshire). . The couple have two other children recorded living with them, while the household runs to 4 live in servants. That address was in the Row Civil Registration District.

The 1911 Census of Scotland has a 14 year old John Barrie Young recorded in Dunbarton in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District. (Scotlands People).

The January 1917 British Army Monthly list shows that Second -Lieutenant J.B. Young, 5th Battalion Highland Light Infantry attached 4th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment with a seniority date of the 11th January 1916.  (Column 1447). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103216885
As a Second- Lieutenant that seniority date is almost certainly his commissioning date.

On the September 1916 British Army Monthly List is is shown on the strength of the 3/5th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109471527
The October 1916 British Army List is the first time he appears as attached 4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment - at do others commissioned December 1915 / January 1916. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123061041
In both months the relevant entry is in column 1447.

May be a co-incidence but Scotlands People is showing a John Barrie Young as having married a Mary Johnston in 1938 in the Blythswood Registration District.

His father, David Jackson Young, would pass away in 1941. That years probate calendar records John Barrie Young as one of his Legal Excutors, and records that John was a Stockbroker.

Image courtesy https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

The death of a John Barrie Young, aged 70, was recorded in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District. (Scotlands People) in 1967. According to FindAGrave that man died on the 19th November 1967 and is buried at Helensburgh Cemetery.https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152619059/john-barrie-young#source

A brief entry for John turns up in the 1968 Probate Calendar - by this point the Calendar entries give little information and so the underlying document has to be purchased if more information is required.

Image courtesy https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 18 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos and add other Monthly List info

[gunnerwalker]

21 hours ago, PRC said:

BTW - if you have had an Ancestry account in the past but no longer subscribe, you are likely to have a free account using your log-in. One of the few military documents you can see with a free account is the MiC's. And by drilling down into the Military records categories it can be possible to glean more information, although no where near as much as subscription will grant you. A free account also means you're already good to go should Ancestry announce a free access period - the upcoming Remembrance period is a potential period for such access. Sometimes that opens the way to Ancestrys' US sister site Fold 3, which allows you to log in with your Ancestry details if they give free accress at the same time. Oddly the reproduction of records on Fold 3 is usually better, even though you would have thought they were using the same storage source. It also is the home of the Pension Ledger cards, for which there is only basic transcript on Ancestry.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter, I'll bear this in mind.

 

19 hours ago, PRC said:

Scotlands People is showing the birth of a John Barrie Young, mothers' maiden name McNeill recorded in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District in 1897.

I only have access to a very basic transcription of the 1901 Census of Scotland but that shows a 4 year old John B. Young, born Shandon, Dunbartonshire, who was recorded at John Street, Helensburgh. This was the household of parents David Jackson Young, (43, a Stockbroker, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire) and Janet, (aged 38, born Sandbank, Argyllshire). . The couple have two other children recorded living with them, while the household runs to 4 live in servants. That address was in the Row Civil Registration District.

The 1911 Census of Scotland has a 14 year old John Barrie Young recorded in Dunbarton in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District. (Scotlands People).

The January 1917 British Army Monthly list shows that Second -Lieutenant J.B. Young, 5th Battalion Highland Light Infantry attached 4th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment with a seniority date of the 11th January 1916.  (Column 1447). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103216885
As a Second- Lieutenant that seniority date is almost certainly his commissioning date.

On the September 1916 British Army Monthly List is is shown on the strength of the 3/5th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109471527
The October 1916 British Army List is the first time he appears as attached 4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment - at do others commissioned December 1915 / January 1916. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123061041
In both months the relevant entry is in column 1447.

May be a co-incidence but Scotlands People is showing a John Barrie Young as having married a Mary Johnston in 1938 in the Blythswood Registration District.

His father, David Jackson Young, would pass away in 1941. That years probate calendar records John Barrie Young as one of his Legal Excutors, and records that John was a Stockbroker.

Image courtesy https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

The death of a John Barrie Young, aged 70, was recorded in the Row (or Rhu) Registration District. (Scotlands People) in 1967. According to FindAGrave that man died on the 19th November 1967 and is buried at Helensburgh Cemetery.https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152619059/john-barrie-young#source

A brief entry for John turns up in the 1968 Probate Calendar - by this point the Calendar entries give little information and so the underlying document has to be purchased if more information is required.

Image courtesy https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

Cheers,
Peter

Excellent info thank you.

Interesting that he only first appeared in the lists as with the Gloucestershire Regiment in October, likely he joined in August or September. He's probably fresh into the battalion in photo 1. I'll have a flick through the war diary and some books to see if he's mentioned anywhere. 

[PRC]

On 14/10/2023 at 15:42, gunnerwalker said:

'Rouen 1917'. I believe this man is a Gordon Highlander? The fourth photo I didn't win showed this man and the man in photo 17 having their picture taken with two VAD nurses on the edge of a woodland.

On 14/10/2023 at 15:46, gunnerwalker said:

16. - 'Rouen 1917'. The same man as in picture 13?

Are these the two images you think might be the same man?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Are these the two images you think might be the same man?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I reckon they're of the same person.

[gunnerwalker]

https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/ww1-soldiers-group-photos/h9C1CF735#h9c1cf735

Found a group photo apparently showing Lieut. E. M. Matthews and Capt. R. Lowe. Not sure of the date but it's likely to be pre-1914. Looking at him I don't think R. Lowe is the same as the Lieut. Lowe in photo 9. His rank already being identified as Captain in this photo would further support that.

[GWF1967]

50 minutes ago, PRC said:

Are these the two images you think might be the same man?

They look to be a good match. 

[gunnerwalker]

On 15/10/2023 at 15:46, PRC said:

Cecil attended the Bristol Grammar School and appears on their Roll of service for the Great War. The entry on page 341 shows him as attending the school 1894-1899 but only refers to his service in the ranks with the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars. https://issuu.com/bristolgrammarschool/docs/roll_of_service

The Bristol Grammar School website adds he was born on the 25^th June 1883, but has him serving as a Captain with the Gloucestershire Yeomanry. https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/t-z

The school has an archivist, so might be worth contacting them to see if they have any pictures of Cecil that could be used to make a comparison. If not, and it can otherwise be shown the right man has been identified, then they might well appreciate a copy of your picture. https://www.throughthegreatwar.bristolgrammarschool.org.uk/about-us-1

 

Cheers,
Peter

I've heard back from the lovely Anne who is one of the Bristol Grammar School archivists. Of Cecil, she says:

"He appears frequently in the School Chronicle, and though I didn’t check every entry he seems primarily to appear as a Cricketer and there are many references to him playing in the Old Bristolians’ Cricket team. I’ve added my full signature at the end of these emails, and if you click on Digital Archives it will take you to our digitised Chronicles and some other items. Search on Welsby, but be aware that Cecil had an elder brother, Arthur Noel, who was also a cricketer. The Chronicle is usually quite good about adding initials when there are two people with the same surname mentioned, but it’s not 100% reliable.

I cannot find a photograph which definitely includes him, but I attach a photograph from about the right time which unfortunately has no names on it. It would be interesting to see if your possible photo of CMW corresponds to anyone on this 1907 South Devon Tour OBCC Group."

She's allowed me to share the cricket tour photo here. To me, at first glance, there's nobody resembling Cecil among them - though there's nearly a decade's difference in time.

[GWF1967]

43 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

I've heard back from the lovely Anne who is one of the Bristol Grammar School archivists. Of Cecil, she says:

"He appears frequently in the School Chronicle, and though I didn’t check every entry he seems primarily to appear as a Cricketer and there are many references to him playing in the Old Bristolians’ Cricket team. I’ve added my full signature at the end of these emails, and if you click on Digital Archives it will take you to our digitised Chronicles and some other items. Search on Welsby, but be aware that Cecil had an elder brother, Arthur Noel, who was also a cricketer. The Chronicle is usually quite good about adding initials when there are two people with the same surname mentioned, but it’s not 100% reliable.

I cannot find a photograph which definitely includes him, but I attach a photograph from about the right time which unfortunately has no names on it. It would be interesting to see if your possible photo of CMW corresponds to anyone on this 1907 South Devon Tour OBCC Group."

She's allowed me to share the cricket tour photo here. To me, at first glance, there's nobody resembling Cecil among them - though there's nearly a decade's difference in time.

Back row, second from the right looks a good match for ear shape and around the mouth/chin. 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, gunnerwalker said:

https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/ww1-soldiers-group-photos/h9C1CF735#h9c1cf735

Found a group photo apparently showing Lieut. E. M. Matthews and Capt. R. Lowe. Not sure of the date but it's likely to be pre-1914.

There wouldn't have been a 4th Reserve before about September 1914 at the earliest, when the 4th Battalion was split into the 1st Line of those who volunteered to serve overseas and the 2nd Line for those who wanted to stay UK home service only and the surplus new recruits that needed training. Generally speaking the 2/4th would have been known as the 4th Reserve at that stage with unit's going over to use the style 2/4th from about January 1915 onwards. That was either because the 1st Line unit was now overseas, or because the two Battalions were no longer located together, as 2nd Line Territorial Force Divisions came into being and 2nd Line units gravitated to where their Divisions were based. Of course the style "4th Reserve" continued in use and will crop up in other ranks service records.

Following an re-organisation of the training system in 1916 and the creation of a generalised Training Reserve by about September 1916 plus the passage of the Military Service Act of 1916, which along with conscription removed the Home Service only option from Territorial Force men, the number of TF 2nd Line Battalions was condensed by amalgamation, the remaining battalions styled , for example, "4th Reserve". Of course by now the practice of calling it the 2/4th Battalion had become the norm, so, as you can see with the Monthly Army List, the practice would continue locally and in admin at the soldiers records level.

Looking specifically at Edwin Martin Matthews I'd assumed that the picture was taken late 1914, but actually the January 1916 British Army Monthly List, (the one I had to hand), shows 2nd Lieutenant E.M. Matthews, 2/4th Battalion, with seniority from the 2nd March 1915, (column 1165). The officer standing next to him, Second-Lieutenant W.G. Shipway appears in the same column with a seniority of the 21st November 1915. I couldn't find a match for 2Lt H.S. Denton, 2Lt H.V. Thomas is in column 1164c, but without a 1, 2 or 3 entry and with seniority from the 14th February 1915. 2 Lt. W.F. Ward is shown in column 1165 serving with the 3/4th Battalion and with seniority from the 14th November 1915.https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/122406500

The June 1916 British Army List stills shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant but with a local promotion to Lieutenant effective 26th January 1916 and now with the 3/4th. (Column 1165) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/107992620

The 3/4ths commanding officer in the June 1916 Army List List is Lieutenant-Colonel J.B. Butler, (column 1164b). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/107992608

The MiC for Lieutenant Edwin Martin Matthews, 4th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment, (T.F.), shows him first landing in France on the 17th August 1916.

Best side by side comparison I could do was this one:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

1 hour ago, gunnerwalker said:

It would be interesting to see if your possible photo of CMW corresponds to anyone on this 1907 South Devon Tour OBCC Group."

Picture header actually says August 1906. A keyword search of newspapers and periodicals on FindMyPast bring up 20 matches for "Old Bristolians" and "Cricket" in 1906 alone. Hopefully some will include the names of members of the team that went on tour. Here's a small snap-shot sample.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

It would probably be best to establish whether Welsby was even on the Tour by checking the full reports before trying to identify potential facial matches.

One of the articles refers to the Messrs Boucher who were on the Tour, so at least two brothers. One of those was probably Frank (Francis) Boucher.

"He was educated at Bristol Grammar School where he was captain of the school XI, and later became captain of Bristol Rugby Club. He was also president of the Gloucestershire Rugby Union and of the Bristol Cricket Association.

At the outbreak of war he joined the 2/4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment as a lieutenant and took part in a very successful recruiting campaign in Bristol. He was soon promoted to captain. On 5 July 1916, he led an attack on the German trenches as part of the Battle of the Somme and was shot on his way back when he stopped to assist a wounded soldier. He was 36 years old. He is buried in Laventie Military Cemetery, near Armentieres." https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

Edit - just about to post this and was idly scrolling through the 20 matches in the newspapers. I'd already tried including Welsby in the search criteria and got no matches, so was just trying to see if there was a garbled word transcribed that could be him. What I found was a report of a match that had taken place the previous day between the Bristol Grammar School and the Old Bristolians in the edition of the Western Daily Press dated 11th July 1906. The snippet version I could see included "The chief scorers for the Old Bristolians were C.M. Welsby, H.A.M. Parker and A.M. Weleby, who made 28." I suspect that is the other Welsby brother. I don't know if they subsequently went on the South Devon tour - the other newspapers would need to be checked. And presumably the Grannar School match will be covered in the School Chronicle.

So potentially you have at least two sets of brothers in the cricket team photograph. One wonders what other Great War stories go with those faces.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

On 19/10/2023 at 00:27, PRC said:

There wouldn't have been a 4th Reserve before about September 1914 at the earliest, when the 4th Battalion was split into the 1st Line of those who volunteered to serve overseas and the 2nd Line for those who wanted to stay UK home service only and the surplus new recruits that needed training. Generally speaking the 2/4th would have been known as the 4th Reserve at that stage with unit's going over to use the style 2/4th from about January 1915 onwards. That was either because the 1st Line unit was now overseas, or because the two Battalions were no longer located together, as 2nd Line Territorial Force Divisions came into being and 2nd Line units gravitated to where their Divisions were based. Of course the style "4th Reserve" continued in use and will crop up in other ranks service records.

Following an re-organisation of the training system in 1916 and the creation of a generalised Training Reserve by about September 1916 plus the passage of the Military Service Act of 1916, which along with conscription removed the Home Service only option from Territorial Force men, the number of TF 2nd Line Battalions was condensed by amalgamation, the remaining battalions styled , for example, "4th Reserve". Of course by now the practice of calling it the 2/4th Battalion had become the norm, so, as you can see with the Monthly Army List, the practice would continue locally and in admin at the soldiers records level.

Looking specifically at Edwin Martin Matthews I'd assumed that the picture was taken late 1914, but actually the January 1916 British Army Monthly List, (the one I had to hand), shows 2nd Lieutenant E.M. Matthews, 2/4th Battalion, with seniority from the 2nd March 1915, (column 1165). The officer standing next to him, Second-Lieutenant W.G. Shipway appears in the same column with a seniority of the 21st November 1915. I couldn't find a match for 2Lt H.S. Denton, 2Lt H.V. Thomas is in column 1164c, but without a 1, 2 or 3 entry and with seniority from the 14th February 1915. 2 Lt. W.F. Ward is shown in column 1165 serving with the 3/4th Battalion and with seniority from the 14th November 1915.https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/122406500

The June 1916 British Army List stills shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant but with a local promotion to Lieutenant effective 26th January 1916 and now with the 3/4th. (Column 1165) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/107992620

The 3/4ths commanding officer in the June 1916 Army List List is Lieutenant-Colonel J.B. Butler, (column 1164b). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/107992608

The MiC for Lieutenant Edwin Martin Matthews, 4th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment, (T.F.), shows him first landing in France on the 17th August 1916.

Best side by side comparison I could do was this one:-

Thanks Peter, I had noticed Matthews' date of entry when I'd first started looking into the photos and assumed he'd been in either the 2nd or 3rd line battalions previously, but wasn't aware that style of naming was so recent. 

[gunnerwalker]

On 19/10/2023 at 01:06, PRC said:

Picture header actually says August 1906. A keyword search of newspapers and periodicals on FindMyPast bring up 20 matches for "Old Bristolians" and "Cricket" in 1906 alone. Hopefully some will include the names of members of the team that went on tour. Here's a small snap-shot sample.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

It would probably be best to establish whether Welsby was even on the Tour by checking the full reports before trying to identify potential facial matches.

One of the articles refers to the Messrs Boucher who were on the Tour, so at least two brothers. One of those was probably Frank (Francis) Boucher.

"He was educated at Bristol Grammar School where he was captain of the school XI, and later became captain of Bristol Rugby Club. He was also president of the Gloucestershire Rugby Union and of the Bristol Cricket Association.

At the outbreak of war he joined the 2/4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment as a lieutenant and took part in a very successful recruiting campaign in Bristol. He was soon promoted to captain. On 5 July 1916, he led an attack on the German trenches as part of the Battle of the Somme and was shot on his way back when he stopped to assist a wounded soldier. He was 36 years old. He is buried in Laventie Military Cemetery, near Armentieres." https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

Edit - just about to post this and was idly scrolling through the 20 matches in the newspapers. I'd already tried including Welsby in the search criteria and got no matches, so was just trying to see if there was a garbled word transcribed that could be him. What I found was a report of a match that had taken place the previous day between the Bristol Grammar School and the Old Bristolians in the edition of the Western Daily Press dated 11th July 1906. The snippet version I could see included "The chief scorers for the Old Bristolians were C.M. Welsby, H.A.M. Parker and A.M. Weleby, who made 28." I suspect that is the other Welsby brother. I don't know if they subsequently went on the South Devon tour - the other newspapers would need to be checked. And presumably the Grannar School match will be covered in the School Chronicle.

So potentially you have at least two sets of brothers in the cricket team photograph. One wonders what other Great War stories go with those faces.

Cheers,
Peter

Great stuff once again.

"One wonders what other Great War stories go with those faces." - Indeed.

I'm still exchanging emails with the archivist from the Bristol Grammar School. She mentioned Gilbert Stacey Castle out of the blue which was an odd coincidence, and I've given her all the other names and she's going to scan them against their archive system to see if anything comes up as a match. 

I'd originally bought this album as I was intrigued by a couple of the named images - and then as I realised there were more and more in the set I thought I should probably do my best to keep them together. It's a shame a few got away but I'm pleased to have kept the vast majority together. From there I had no idea they would contain so many men local to me and the information for whom would prove to be so fascinating and plentiful. My thanks to all who have contributed!

[PRC]

On 18/10/2023 at 23:35, gunnerwalker said:

I cannot find a photograph which definitely includes him, but I attach a photograph from about the right time which unfortunately has no names on it. It would be interesting to see if your possible photo of CMW corresponds to anyone on this 1907 South Devon Tour OBCC Group."

She's allowed me to share the cricket tour photo here. To me, at first glance, there's nobody resembling Cecil among them - though there's nearly a decade's difference in time.

As things had gone a bit quiet on this I followed up my own suggestion of checking the likes of the British Newspaper Archives for reports on the 1906 Cricket Tour of South Devon by the Old Bristolians and use that to identify those individuals present. So thanks to an entirely unexpected couple of hours in the public library,  I can report that according to the edition of the Exeter and Plymouth Gazette dated Monday, August 13^th, 1906 “The Bristolians concluded their tour on Saturday at Teignmouth and won by 42 runs. During their visit to Devon the Old Bristolians have won three matches and lost three.”

So that gives six potential matches to identify who the players were. Unfortunately a check back at home shows I have multiple reports of the same three matches, but even that shows there was some fluidity – only six individuals look likely to have played in all three matches - although for our puposes the fact that C.M. Welsby is one of them is very helpful, although the name variations reported is not! The names of those in the field who caught and bowled do not feature initials so when the scorecard has someone as bowled by Welsby or caught by Boucher it is difficult to know which. None of the scorecards lists who is captain.

 

 

So who were these 15 individuals and might they account for all the 12 men in the tour photograph.

I’ll start through the names slowly, so as to not set off too many hares at once

C.H. BEAUCHAMP. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. Western Daily Press and Bristol Mirror, Saturday, June 24, 1933. “FUNERAL OF MR. C.H. BEAUCHAMP. Well known Bristol Insurance Official. The funeral took place at Camford Cemetery, yesterday, of Mr. Charles Herbert Beauchamp, of Downs Park West, Westbury Park, who died suddenly while on a business trip to Gloucester on Tuesday. Mr. Beauchamp had been associated with the Liverpool and Globe Insurance Co, for 45 years, and had been the company’s Bristol surveyor for a long period”. The obituary makes no reference to Great War service.
The civil death records has the Charles Herbert Beauchamp whose death was recorded in the Gloucester District in Q2 1933 as aged 65.

F.J. HANNAN. Francis John “Hannam”. Hannam was born on 03/07/1880, and attended the School from 1891-1896. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment "C" Coy. 2nd/4th Bn.. Hannam sadly lost his life on 05/07/1916. Source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service which has a small picture. It’s slightly bigger on the Lives of the First World War website. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1539178

Assuming he is present, (BIG assumption!), then could this possibly be him?

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Incidentally if he was pictured here then means it wasn’t taken as part of the match against Teignmouth.

On page 4 of the edition of the Bristol Times and Mirror dated Monday, July 24, 1916, there is a report on a memorial service for Captain Hannam that had taken place the day before at St. Mary’s Church, Tyndall Park. I will be referring to it numerous times because of the attendee’s, but for now it is interesting to note that among the relatives attending are a number with the surname Boucher. See here for the explanation https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

To be continued,
Peter

Edited 26 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

As things had gone a bit quiet on this I followed up my own suggestion of checking the likes of the British Newspaper Archives for reports on the 1906 Cricket Tour of South Devon by the Old Bristolians and use that to identify those individuals present. So thanks to an entirely unexpected couple of hours in the public library,  I can report that according to the edition of the Exeter and Plymouth Gazette dated Monday, August 13^th, 1906 “The Bristolians concluded their tour on Saturday at Teignmouth and won by 42 runs. During their visit to Devon the Old Bristolians have won three matches and lost three.”

So that gives six potential matches to identify who the players were. Unfortunately a check back at home shows I have multiple reports of the same three matches, but even that shows there was some fluidity – only six individuals look likely to have played in all three matches - although for our puposes the fact that C.M. Welsby is one of them is very helpful, although the name variations reported is not! The names of those in the field who caught and bowled do not feature initials so when the scorecard has someone as bowled by Welsby or caught by Boucher it is difficult to know which. None of the scorecards lists who is captain.

 

 

So who were these 15 individuals and might they account for all the 12 men in the tour photograph.

I’ll start through the names slowly, so as to not set off too many hares at once

C.H. BEAUCHAMP. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. Western Daily Press and Bristol Mirror, Saturday, June 24, 1933. “FUNERAL OF MR. C.H. BEAUCHAMP. Well known Bristol Insurance Official. The funeral took place at Camford Cemetery, yesterday, of Mr. Charles Herbert Beauchamp, of Downs Park West, Westbury Park, who died suddenly while on a business trip to Gloucester on Tuesday. Mr. Beauchamp had been associated with the Liverpool and Globe Insurance Co, for 45 years, and had been the company’s Bristol surveyor for a long period”. The obituary makes no reference to Great War service.
The civil death records has the Charles Herbert Beauchamp whose death was recorded in the Gloucester District in Q2 1933 as aged 65.

F.J. HANNAN. Francis John “Hannam”. Hannam was born on 03/07/1880, and attended the School from 1891-1896. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment "C" Coy. 2nd/4th Bn.. Hannam sadly lost his life on 05/07/1916. Source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service which has a small picture. It’s slightly bigger on the Lives of the First World War website. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1539178

Assuming he is present, (BIG assumption!), then could this possibly be him?

 

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Incidentally if he was pictured here then means it wasn’t taken as part of the match against Teignmouth.

On page 4 of the edition of the Bristol Times and Mirror dated Monday, July 24, 1916, there is a report on a memorial service for Captain Hannam that had taken place the day before at St. Mary’s Church, Tyndall Park. I will be referring to it numerous times because of the attendee’s, but for now it is interesting to note that among the relatives attending are a number with the surname Boucher. See here for the explanation https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

To be continued,
Peter

You’ve got him alright Peter, pugnacious nose, eye sockets, lips and dimpled chin all match.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

You’ve got him alright Peter, pugnacious nose, eye sockets, lips and dimpled chin all match.

I agree entirely. Very, very comprehensive research all round.

 

2 hours ago, PRC said:

On page 4 of the edition of the Bristol Times and Mirror dated Monday, July 24, 1916, there is a report on a memorial service for Captain Hannam that had taken place the day before at St. Mary’s Church, Tyndall Park. I will be referring to it numerous times because of the attendee’s, but for now it is interesting to note that among the relatives attending are a number with the surname Boucher. See here for the explanation https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

Are you able to view the individual scrapbook entries? I can enter each volume but then only see the descriptions of each item. 

I've not found this website previously so am also looking through now. There's was looks to be a very large and very good collection of images, referred to as the Vaughan Collection, through which I'm scouring for anything familiar or related. https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/43207

[PRC]

W.B. or W.P. COLE. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

G.H. BOUCHER. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. The memorial service for Francis John Hannam, (q.v.) was attended by his relatives Mr. and Mrs. G.H. Boucher. A piece on the family lists George Herbert Boucher as born 1877. https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

W.T. CLARKE. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

C.M. or C.N. WELSBY. Cecil Marson Welsby. Welsby was born on 25/06/1883, and attended the School from 1894-1899. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Yeomanry. – source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. Pre-war newspaper reports of him playing for the Clifton Rugby Football Club. The memorial service for Captain Hannam includes a Lieutenant C.M. Welsby as one of the representatives of Clifton Rugby Football Club. Page 6 of the edition of the Gloucester Journal, dated Saturday March 9^th 1918 has a piece “Rugby Football in the Glos’stershire Regiment. Reserve Battalion’s Splended Record”. It notes that when the 4^th Battalion was mobilised at the outbreak of war it included “practically all the members of the premier Gloucester Fifteen who achieved so many noteworthy triumphs in season 1913-14”. It goes on to mention “The removal of such famous sportsman as Captain C.O.H. Sewell, (the Gloucestershire cricket capt.), Captain A.J. Gardner (Gloucester County and Clifton) and Captain C.M. Welsby (Clifton) who were of infinate assistance in freely giving the benefit of their experience and advice on the Selection Committee, has also been a great loss.”

Cecil Marson Welsby played in all matches that I found records for, suggesting he might be an ever-present and so present in the cricket club picture as well. We know his brother Arthur most likely played in two out of three. So could one of these be Cecil and the other Arthur?

No new IP is claimed for the above comparison. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

To be continued.
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

C.M. or C.N. WELSBY. Cecil Marson Welsby. Welsby was born on 25/06/1883, and attended the School from 1894-1899. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Yeomanry. – source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. Pre-war newspaper reports of him playing for the Clifton Rugby Football Club. The memorial service for Captain Hannam includes a Lieutenant C.M. Welsby as one of the representatives of Clifton Rugby Football Club. Page 6 of the edition of the Gloucester Journal, dated Saturday March 9^th 1918 has a piece “Rugby Football in the Glos’stershire Regiment. Reserve Battalion’s Splended Record”. It notes that when the 4^th Battalion was mobilised at the outbreak of war it included “practically all the members of the premier Gloucester Fifteen who achieved so many noteworthy triumphs in season 1913-14”. It goes on to mention “The removal of such famous sportsman as Captain C.O.H. Sewell, (the Gloucestershire cricket capt.), Captain A.J. Gardner (Gloucester County and Clifton) and Captain C.M. Welsby (Clifton) who were of infinate assistance in freely giving the benefit of their experience and advice on the Selection Committee, has also been a great loss.”

Cecil Marson Welsby played in all matches that I found records for, suggesting he might be an ever-present and so present in the cricket club picture as well. We know his brother Arthur most likely played in two out of three. So could one of these be Cecil and the other Arthur?

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above comparison. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

 

To be continued.
Peter

 

Difficult to be at all certain but I can see a likeness with my photo of Cecil and the man on the left. Similar shape around the jaw (complicated by the chinstrap though), the noses are very alike and so are the eyes - both their spacing and one seeming to be slightly higher than the other. The moustache gets in the way a bit but the overall shape of main features look consistent.

There's something in the expression of the eyes too - in both left and middle pictures he's looking at the camera but also staring straight through it.

Not convinced the ears are a great match, although ten years of playing rugby could easily be responsible for the difference. 

Edited 26 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker