Photo Album - 1/4th Gloucestershire, Scottish Regiments. France, Italy, England.

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, PRC said:

W.B. or W.P. COLE. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

 

G.H. BOUCHER. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. The memorial service for Francis John Hannam, (q.v.) was attended by his relatives Mr. and Mrs. G.H. Boucher. A piece on the family lists George Herbert Boucher as born 1877. https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859

 

W.T. CLARKE. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

 

C.M. or C.N. WELSBY. Cecil Marson Welsby. Welsby was born on 25/06/1883, and attended the School from 1894-1899. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Yeomanry. – source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. Pre-war newspaper reports of him playing for the Clifton Rugby Football Club. The memorial service for Captain Hannam includes a Lieutenant C.M. Welsby as one of the representatives of Clifton Rugby Football Club. Page 6 of the edition of the Gloucester Journal, dated Saturday March 9^th 1918 has a piece “Rugby Football in the Glos’stershire Regiment. Reserve Battalion’s Splended Record”. It notes that when the 4^th Battalion was mobilised at the outbreak of war it included “practically all the members of the premier Gloucester Fifteen who achieved so many noteworthy triumphs in season 1913-14”. It goes on to mention “The removal of such famous sportsman as Captain C.O.H. Sewell, (the Gloucestershire cricket capt.), Captain A.J. Gardner (Gloucester County and Clifton) and Captain C.M. Welsby (Clifton) who were of infinate assistance in freely giving the benefit of their experience and advice on the Selection Committee, has also been a great loss.”

Cecil Marson Welsby played in all matches that I found records for, suggesting he might be an ever-present and so present in the cricket club picture as well. We know his brother Arthur most likely played in two out of three. So could one of these be Cecil and the other Arthur?

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above comparison. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

 

To be continued.
Peter

 

I don’t think that the centre fellow matches with either of the 1906 images in this instance Peter.  There are too few similarities in the facial features, but also both the 1906 men have a very dark growth in their luxurious moustaches, whereas the central fellow, despite that he has a moustache in accordance with regulations, albeit a lighter weight affair, is much more mousey in his hair colour.

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think that the centre fellow matches with either of the 1906 images in this instance Peter.  There are too few similarities in the facial features, but also both the 1906 men have a very dark growth in their luxurious moustaches, whereas the central fellow, despite that he has a moustache in accordance with regulations, albeit a lighter weight affair, is much more mousey in his hair colour.

Not a problem - I put them up so others can knock them down or suggest a better alternative, especially when the image to make a comparison with is lacking a lot of detail due to shadow.
I was going on the officers' nose shape, inner ear shape, what little can be discerned of his left eyebrow and eyelids and the expression in the eyes.
Because of the chinstrap on the Brodie it's impossible to make a straight comparison there, and the outer ear shape was a big question mark, but that could be down to the angle, the bright sunlight in which the picture was taken, the passage of time and the resolution available on the image.

I still think the two men from the 1906 Cricket Tour picture might be brothers, but whether they are two of the three Boucher brothers is currently unknown.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not a problem - I put them up so others can knock them down or suggest a better alternative, especially when the image to make a comparison with is lacking a lot of detail due to shadow.
I was going on the officers' nose shape, inner ear shape, what little can be discerned of his left eyebrow and eyelids and the expression in the eyes.
Because of the chinstrap on the Brodie it's impossible to make a straight comparison there, and the outer ear shape was a big question mark, but that could be down to the angle, the bright sunlight in which the picture was taken, the passage of time and the resolution available on the image.

I still think the two men from the 1906 Cricket Tour picture might be brothers, but whether they are two of the three Boucher brothers is currently unknown.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I understand your rationale and it was just my pitch trying to help.  One of many views that you might receive.  I can’t offer alternatives I’m afraid, but I hope that my view in such cases will contribute towards any consensus that might be achieved.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

None of the scorecards lists who is captain.

 

I'd wager the chap you have cropped is captain, at least for the match photographed, as he wears a different blazer to the rest of the team pictured. Though there are a few different types, his is typical of a traditional captain's blazer and he stands central to the group.

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

So that gives six potential matches to identify who the players were. Unfortunately a check back at home shows I have multiple reports of the same three matches, but even that shows there was some fluidity – only six individuals look likely to have played in all three matches - although for our puposes the fact that C.M. Welsby is one of them is very helpful, although the name variations reported is not! The names of those in the field who caught and bowled do not feature initials so when the scorecard has someone as bowled by Welsby or caught by Boucher it is difficult to know which. None of the scorecards lists who is captain.

 

 

And as you've highlighted Cecil played in every match then he's almost certainly one of those in the photo - and I maintain my conviction over the one he most resembles of the lot.

In the second issue of the BGS Chronicle from 1906 I've found a scorecard of a match between Bristol Grammar School and Old Bristolians CC on the 10th July. C. M. Welsby appears batting at no. 4, and A. N. Welsby bats at 7. Neither of the brothers bowl in the BGS innings, but Cecil's batting position would suggest he is primarily a batsman while his brother occupies a more traditional all-rounder's spot.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[PRC]

A.J. GARDNER. There is a rugby playing Captain A. J. Gardner serving with the 4^th Reserve Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment noted above under Cecil Marson Welsby. Alfred John Gardner. Gardner was born on 19/01/1882, and attended the School from 1893-1901. He served as a Lieutenant in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment 4th Bn. – source  Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. We already have a picture of the 4^th Reserve Battalion posted in this thread that has been roughly dated to early 1916. One of those listed as present is Captain A.J. Gardner.

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Unfortunately giving the intervening decade and the low quality image to make the comparison with there are several potential candidates for a match – including the man previously put forward as Hannam!

Easiest thing to do at this point seemed to be to number those present in the Cricket Tour picture and then reference the possible matches by number.

No new IP is claimed for the above. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Everytime I look I see different potential matches for Captain Gardner, but I think I’ve settled on 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 or 8!

16 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

I'd wager the chap you have cropped is captain, at least for the match photographed, as he wears a different blazer to the rest of the team pictured.

Given group dynamics I’d say 9 is the most likely candidate for the team captain, and there is a goodish match for that man to come. Perhaps 4 was wearing a different blazer as he was 12th man for this fixture - if so it's a decision he doesn't look particularly happy with

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 26 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos and formatting

[gunnerwalker]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

A.J. GARDNER. There is a rugby playing Captain A. J. Gardner serving with the 4^th Reserve Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment noted above under Cecil Marson Welsby. Alfred John Gardner. Gardner was born on 19/01/1882, and attended the School from 1893-1901. He served as a Lieutenant in the Army, with the Gloucestershire Regiment 4th Bn. – source  Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. We already have a picture of the 4^th Reserve Battalion posted in this thread that has been roughly dated to early 1916. One of those listed as present is Captain A.J. Gardner.

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Unfortunately giving the intervening decade and the low quality image to make the comparison with there are several potential candidates for a match – including the man previously put forward as Hannam!

Easiest thing to do at this point seemed to be to number those present in the Cricket Tour picture and then reference the possible matches by number.

Everytime I look I see different potential matches for Captain Gardner, but I think I’ve settled on 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 or 8!

I think number 3 for Gardner (8 as reserve choice).

 

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Given group dynamics I’d say 9 is the most likely candidate for the team captain, and there is a goodish match for that man to come. Perhaps 4 was wearing a different blazer as he was 12th man for this fixture - if so it's a decision he doesn't look particularly happy with

I had been thinking who could be 12th man. Unless it's due to a generous cravat then number 7 is the only one who doesn't appear to be wearing a playing shirt under his blazer. Number 5 also has a cravat, but you can still see a glimpse of white collar poking out.

I do agree it's standard practice to have the captain seated centrally - I've been in several cricket team photos for my clubs and that has always been the case - but the one different blazer does stand out to me. I do play in Bristol but I've not played against Old Bristolians before (now known as Old Bristolians Westbury CC). They are an old rival of my club. If I ever play there I shall have to look round the clubhouse for old team photos.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[GWF1967]

24 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

I think number 3 for Gardner (8 as reserve choice).

I'll second that!

[PRC]

1 hour ago, gunnerwalker said:

I think number 3 for Gardner (8 as reserve choice).

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

I'll second that!

Have to admit number 3 was the way I was originally leaning, but when you start working with images sometimes you can see the minor details that can prove so important, and other times it keeps turning into a distraction. Looking at no.3 all I could keep seeing was Erling Haaland, while the officer reminded me of an older Colin Firth

Thanks for providing some additional eyes and grounded common-sense on this - it must be time for my medication!

No new IP is claimed for the above. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, PRC said:

Have to admit number 3 was the way I was originally leaning, but when you start working with images sometimes you can see the minor details that can prove so important, and other times it keeps turning into a distraction. Looking at no.3 all I could keep seeing was Erling Haaland, while the officer reminded me of an older Colin Firth

Thanks for providing some additional eyes and grounded common-sense on this - it must be time for my medication!

No new IP is claimed for the above. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Those two certainly match Peter 👍

[PRC]

S.T. or F.T. BOUCHER.  Frank Treadwell Boucher. Boucher was born on 25/07/1882, and attended the School from 1892-1899. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Royal Army Medical Corps - source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. More on the family here https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859
His MiC shows he first landed in a Theatre of War on the 24^th May 1916. When he applied for his medals in April 1924 he gave a contact address of The Lancaster, 70 Lancaster Gate, Hyde Park, (London) W.2. Frank would pass away at Exeter on the 14^th February 1958 at the age of 75 (Billion Graves & GRO). I’m not finding a probate for him, no mention in The Times of his death and the limited preview of the British Medical Journal for February & March 1958 doesn’t seem to include an obituary.

H.A.M., H. or H.A. PARKER. The representative of the Old Bristolians and the Bristol Grammar School Cadets present at the Memorial Service in July 1916 for Francis John Hannam was a Lieutenant H.A.M. Parker. Not listed on the Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. No obvious MiC for a Lieutenant or Captain H.A.M. Parker. The August 1916 British Army Monthly List has the same H.A.M. Parker, a Territorial Force Officer, indexed in two places. In Column 1862 he is in the Unattached List of the Territorial Force Officer Training Corps as Lieutenant H.A.M. Parker with seniority from the 14^th February 1914. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119766050
And in Column 1886 he is shown as serving with the Bristol Grammar School Officer Training Corps (Junior Division) Infantry Platoon. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119766158
The Record of Service of the Officer Cadet Corps Junior Division records that Captain H.A.M. Parker was retained for service with the Officer Cadet Contingent at Bristol Grammar School 1916-1918. https://ia600303.us.archive.org/2/items/recordofwarservi00grea/recordofwarservi00grea_bw.pdf

But going back to the February 1914 British Army Monthly List already shows him as a Second Lieutenant on the Territorial Force Unattached list , with seniority of the 26^th November 1911 but also listed under the Bristol Grammar School OTC. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106402474

A staff photograph from 1910 includes an H.A.M. Parker. It is to be found in “Through the Great War Part 1” prepared by the Bristol Grammar School Archivist, on page 85 https://issuu.com/bristolgrammarschool/docs/through_the_great_war_part_1

The same publication has a picture of the Officers and N.C.O.s of the OTC in 1916 on page 150 – the text on page 149 refers to it being taken at the end of summer term. Front and centre is Captain H.A.M. Parker.

And finally a full name from an online family tree – Herbert Alfred Montgomery Parker (1874-1944) with the accompanying information “In the 1911 census the family was living at 56 Archfield Road. Redland, Bristol, Gloucestershire. Herbert, aged 36, was a schoolmaster. Nellie was aged 35. Son Herbert was aged 4 and Austen was aged 1. Also living with them were boarder Herbert Cherry, aged 18, a student, and domestic servants Mary Ford, aged 29, a nurse, and Florence Cheshire, aged 18.

From The London Gazette dated 19 January 1912, Pg 461 -

UNATTACHED LIST FOR THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.

Herbert Alfred Montgomery Parker to be Second Lieutenant, for service with the Bristol Grammar School Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps. Dated 26 November, 1911.

From the Teachers' Registration Council Registers -

Parker, Herbert Alfred Montgomery. Date of Registration: 1 September 1915. Register Number: 11140. Address: 3, Blenheim Road, Redland, Bristol 6. Attainments: M.A. Cambridge: Classical Tripos. Experience: Senior Assistant Master - Bristol Cathedral School 1898-1906, Assistant Master - Bristol Grammar School 1904-1919.”
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Parker-33950

So with the 1910 and 1916 images known to be of him, is number 9 from the 1906 cricket team a match?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

To be continued,
Peter

[GWF1967]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

So with the 1910 and 1916 images known to be of him, is number 9 from the 1906 cricket team a match?

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

 

To be continued,
Peter

 

Another boundary Peter. 

[gunnerwalker]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

S.T. or F.T. BOUCHER.  Frank Treadwell Boucher. Boucher was born on 25/07/1882, and attended the School from 1892-1899. He served as a Captain in the Army, with the Royal Army Medical Corps - source Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. More on the family here https://archives.bristol.gov.uk/records/44859
His MiC shows he first landed in a Theatre of War on the 24^th May 1916. When he applied for his medals in April 1924 he gave a contact address of The Lancaster, 70 Lancaster Gate, Hyde Park, (London) W.2. Frank would pass away at Exeter on the 14^th February 1958 at the age of 75 (Billion Graves & GRO). I’m not finding a probate for him, no mention in The Times of his death and the limited preview of the British Medical Journal for February & March 1958 doesn’t seem to include an obituary.

 

H.A.M., H. or H.A. PARKER. The representative of the Old Bristolians and the Bristol Grammar School Cadets present at the Memorial Service in July 1916 for Francis John Hannam was a Lieutenant H.A.M. Parker. Not listed on the Bristol Grammar School Roll of Service. No obvious MiC for a Lieutenant or Captain H.A.M. Parker. The August 1916 British Army Monthly List has the same H.A.M. Parker, a Territorial Force Officer, indexed in two places. In Column 1862 he is in the Unattached List of the Territorial Force Officer Training Corps as Lieutenant H.A.M. Parker with seniority from the 14^th February 1914. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119766050
And in Column 1886 he is shown as serving with the Bristol Grammar School Officer Training Corps (Junior Division) Infantry Platoon. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119766158
The Record of Service of the Officer Cadet Corps Junior Division records that Captain H.A.M. Parker was retained for service with the Officer Cadet Contingent at Bristol Grammar School 1916-1918. https://ia600303.us.archive.org/2/items/recordofwarservi00grea/recordofwarservi00grea_bw.pdf

 

But going back to the February 1914 British Army Monthly List already shows him as a Second Lieutenant on the Territorial Force Unattached list , with seniority of the 26^th November 1911 but also listed under the Bristol Grammar School OTC. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106402474

 

A staff photograph from 1910 includes an H.A.M. Parker. It is to be found in “Through the Great War Part 1” prepared by the Bristol Grammar School Archivist, on page 85 https://issuu.com/bristolgrammarschool/docs/through_the_great_war_part_1

 

The same publication has a picture of the Officers and N.C.O.s of the OTC in 1916 on page 150 – the text on page 149 refers to it being taken at the end of summer term. Front and centre is Captain H.A.M. Parker.

 

And finally a full name from an online family tree – Herbert Alfred Montgomery Parker (1874-1944) with the accompanying information “In the 1911 census the family was living at 56 Archfield Road. Redland, Bristol, Gloucestershire. Herbert, aged 36, was a schoolmaster. Nellie was aged 35. Son Herbert was aged 4 and Austen was aged 1. Also living with them were boarder Herbert Cherry, aged 18, a student, and domestic servants Mary Ford, aged 29, a nurse, and Florence Cheshire, aged 18.

From The London Gazette dated 19 January 1912, Pg 461 -

UNATTACHED LIST FOR THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.

Herbert Alfred Montgomery Parker to be Second Lieutenant, for service with the Bristol Grammar School Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps. Dated 26 November, 1911.

From the Teachers' Registration Council Registers -

Parker, Herbert Alfred Montgomery. Date of Registration: 1 September 1915. Register Number: 11140. Address: 3, Blenheim Road, Redland, Bristol 6. Attainments: M.A. Cambridge: Classical Tripos. Experience: Senior Assistant Master - Bristol Cathedral School 1898-1906, Assistant Master - Bristol Grammar School 1904-1919.”
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Parker-33950

 

So with the 1910 and 1916 images known to be of him, is number 9 from the 1906 cricket team a match?

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

 

To be continued,
Peter

 

Yes I think you've got him in one there.

And something of the Colonel Melchetts about him in the cricket team photo...

[PRC]

G.L. or  G.S. BREWSTER. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. Maybe a co-incidence but on the 1901 Census of England and Wales there is a Brewster family recorded living at 8 Alma Road, Bristol. Father William was the Manager of a Drapery Warehouse. Amongst his children there is a 16 year old Guy S. Brewster, born Norwich, and an 8 year old Gilbert L., born Bristol. The family were still at the same address but the 26 year old Guy Sturdy Brewster was recorded as a Chartered Accountant, while the 18 year old Gilbert Louis was a Student. The birth of a Guy Sturdy Brewster, mothers’ maiden name Sturdy, was registered with the civil authorities in the Norwich District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1885. According to a 1982 edition of the Western Daily Press the Bristol Grannar School has a Guy S. Brewster Scholarship.

A.N. WELLSBY or WELSBY. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. On this thread the Grammar School Archivist has advised that “Cecil had an elder brother, Arthur Noel, who was also a cricketer.” The birth of an Arthur Noel Welsby, mothers’ maiden name Knowles, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bedminster district of Somerset in Q1 1881. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 20 year old Arthur Noel Welsby, an Insurance Clerk, born Portishead, Somerset, was recorded living with his widowed father Arthur John Welsby, (Auctioneer), and younger brother Cecil M., (Merchants Clerk), at 110 Brynland Avenue, Bristol. I could not find Arthur on the 1911 Census nor a record of him on the outbound passenger list. On the 20^th April 1916 an Arthur Noel Welsby, of full age, an Insurance Official and the son of Arthur John Welsby, Auctioneer, married a Marian Campbell at St James Church, Dublin. The death of an Arthur “Neol” Welsby, a Retired Insurance Official, occurred on the 4^th August 1953 at 5 Marine Avenue, Sandycove, County Dublin. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1953/04464/4169977.pdf

H.A. WEBB. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

T or T.J. NAISH. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

E.WILLIAMS. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School.

J. BOUCHER. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. The webpage on the Boucher family lists that George Herbert Boucher and Frank Treadwell Boucher had an older brother John Mycroft Boucher, born 1870. John has his own Wikipedia page but unfortunately no picture. John Mycroft Boucher (16 May 1870 – 7 May 1948) was an English tennis player. In 1898 he was a semi-finalist at Irish Championships and competed at Wimbledon Championships, then considered two of the most important major tennis events. He was active from 1896 until 1923 and won 22 career singles titles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boucher_(tennis)

However he was a significant financial contributor to what was eventually known as the Bristol Central Tennis Club, and their website has a picture of him. https://bctc.org.uk/about/club-history/

A subscription tennis stats site also has a lo-fi picture of him – presumably better quality comes with payment! https://www.db4tennis.com/players/male/john-boucher

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Bearing in mind I do not even know whether J. Boucher is just another one of the recording mistakes. And even if it is another Boucher I don’t know if the J stands for John. Also being born in 1870 he was 35/36 at the time the tour picture was taken in August 1906, so I’m not actually sure there is a match for him at present. I do however wonder if 11 is related? And that chin on the left hand picture makes me speculate about 10 and 1 as potential brothers.

No new IP is claimed for the above. All image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 26 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos and formatting

[gunnerwalker]

On 26/10/2023 at 23:01, PRC said:

A.N. WELLSBY or WELSBY. No match in the Great Roll of Honour for the Bristol Grammar School. On this thread the Grammar School Archivist has advised that “Cecil had an elder brother, Arthur Noel, who was also a cricketer.” The birth of an Arthur Noel Welsby, mothers’ maiden name Knowles, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bedminster district of Somerset in Q1 1881. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 20 year old Arthur Noel Welsby, an Insurance Clerk, born Portishead, Somerset, was recorded living with his widowed father Arthur John Welsby, (Auctioneer), and younger brother Cecil M., (Merchants Clerk), at 110 Brynland Avenue, Bristol. I could not find Arthur on the 1911 Census nor a record of him on the outbound passenger list. On the 20^th April 1916 an Arthur Noel Welsby, of full age, an Insurance Official and the son of Arthur John Welsby, Auctioneer, married a Marian Campbell at St James Church, Dublin. The death of an Arthur “Neol” Welsby, a Retired Insurance Official, occurred on the 4^th August 1953 at 5 Marine Avenue, Sandycove, County Dublin. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1953/04464/4169977.pdf

I know Brynland Avenue fairly well; I used to work a couple of minutes walk away. The Gloucestershire cricket ground and Mr Boucher's tennis club are both within a 10 minute walk as well.

On 26/10/2023 at 23:01, PRC said:

 

All image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Bearing in mind I do not even know whether J. Boucher is just another one of the recording mistakes. And even if it is another Boucher I don’t know if the J stands for John. Also being born in 1870 he was 35/36 at the time the tour picture was taken in August 1906, so I’m not actually sure there is a match for him at present. I do however wonder if 11 is related? And that chin on the left hand picture makes me speculate about 10 and 1 as potential brothers.

Not sure about any of the three, but 11 bears the most resemblance. A possible relation.

Thank you for your thorough research once again Peter. I've been overdue coming back to this and have recently acquired more photos from the album which I have freshly scanned and will begin to post below.

[gunnerwalker]

Additional photos acquired from the album (skipping a couple of sightseeing snaps in west Wales and Yorkshire):

 

33. - a view of Ripon Camp.

 

34. - men on the march.

[gunnerwalker]

35. - "Toliday"

 

36. - "Toliday's bed"

 

37. - "Lowe"

 

38. - "Lowe, Stewart, Scott"

Edited 22 November , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[gunnerwalker]

39. - "D.R. May"

 

40. - "D.R.Y. Crookham"

[PRC]

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

40. - "D.R.Y. Crookham"

A check of the National Archive catalogue for MiC’s for officers between the rank of 2^nd Lieutenant and Colonel with the surname Crookham brings up only two matches.

Second Lieutenant Hugh Anthony Rupert Crookham went out to France with the 1^st Battalion, Cambridgeshire Regiment, landing on the 19^th June 1915. He would die of wounds on the 8^th August 1916.

Lieutenant Colonel William Thomas Rupert Crookham, Senior Chaplain, Army Chaplains Deparment, landed in France on the 20^th January 1915.

When it comes to officers long papers in the National Archive the only Crookham was the Chaplain.

And the index of the November 1918 British Army monthly list only has a Rev. W.T.R. Crookham listed against that surname.

The most obvious alternative would be Cookham – but no-one of that surname in the index to the November 1918 British Army Monthly List, no officers long papers for anyone with that surname, and no officer MiC.

Similarly when it comes to Crockham. No one in the index, no officers long papers and no officer MiC.

The birth and death registers for England & Wales doesn’t throw up any likely candidate with the surname Crookham, Cookham or Crockham. Scotlands People didn’t like Crookham, Cookham or Crockham either.

So at a bit of a loss on that one for now.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, PRC said:

A check of the National Archive catalogue for MiC’s for officers between the rank of 2^nd Lieutenant and Colonel with the surname Crookham brings up only two matches.

 

Second Lieutenant Hugh Anthony Rupert Crookham went out to France with the 1^st Battalion, Cambridgeshire Regiment, landing on the 19^th June 1915. He would die of wounds on the 8^th August 1916.

 

Lieutenant Colonel William Thomas Rupert Crookham, Senior Chaplain, Army Chaplains Deparment, landed in France on the 20^th January 1915.

 

When it comes to officers long papers in the National Archive the only Crookham was the Chaplain.

 

And the index of the November 1918 British Army monthly list only has a Rev. W.T.R. Crookham listed against that surname.

 

The most obvious alternative would be Cookham – but no-one of that surname in the index to the November 1918 British Army Monthly List, no officers long papers for anyone with that surname, and no officer MiC.

 

Similarly when it comes to Crockham. No one in the index, no officers long papers and no officer MiC.

 

The birth and death registers for England & Wales doesn’t throw up any likely candidate with the surname Crookham, Cookham or Crockham. Scotlands People didn’t like Crookham, Cookham or Crockham either.

 

So at a bit of a loss on that one for now.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

I wonder if Cookam might work?  The spelling looks really odd, but stranger things have happened.

Edited 22 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

A check of the National Archive catalogue for MiC’s for officers between the rank of 2^nd Lieutenant and Colonel with the surname Crookham brings up only two matches.

 

Second Lieutenant Hugh Anthony Rupert Crookham went out to France with the 1^st Battalion, Cambridgeshire Regiment, landing on the 19^th June 1915. He would die of wounds on the 8^th August 1916.

 

Lieutenant Colonel William Thomas Rupert Crookham, Senior Chaplain, Army Chaplains Deparment, landed in France on the 20^th January 1915.

 

When it comes to officers long papers in the National Archive the only Crookham was the Chaplain.

 

And the index of the November 1918 British Army monthly list only has a Rev. W.T.R. Crookham listed against that surname.

 

The most obvious alternative would be Cookham – but no-one of that surname in the index to the November 1918 British Army Monthly List, no officers long papers for anyone with that surname, and no officer MiC.

 

Similarly when it comes to Crockham. No one in the index, no officers long papers and no officer MiC.

 

The birth and death registers for England & Wales doesn’t throw up any likely candidate with the surname Crookham, Cookham or Crockham. Scotlands People didn’t like Crookham, Cookham or Crockham either.

 

So at a bit of a loss on that one for now.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Looking at the handwriting on the back I'd say a likely alternative is Crootham.

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Cookam

No one with that surname in th November 1918 Monthly List, no officers long papers for anyone with that surname and no MiC for anyone with that name.

Of course as with the other names there are scenario's where all those things could be true and there was still an officer of that name at some point. I'm assuming he is an officer!

4 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Crootham

Negative on all three measures as well. Given a potential Scottish connection I was wondering if the original owner of the picture could have mishead Cochrane \ Cochran that badly

Cheer,
Peter

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

40. - "D.R.Y. Crookham"

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

A check of the National Archive catalogue for MiC’s for officers between the rank of 2^nd Lieutenant and Colonel with the surname Crookham brings up only two matches...

So at a bit of a loss on that one for now...

I wondered if someone really mangled the surname, and searching the surname purely on Cro* with initials/names matching D* and R* whilst looking for an officer with a Scottish connection found the following:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2023748

Medal card of Crossman, Richard Douglas Corps: Royal Scots Rank: Second...

Reference:WO 372/5/107179

Description:

Medal card of Crossman, Richard Douglas

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Scots Second Lieutenant

Royal Scots Captain

Date:1914-1920

 

[gunnerwalker]

Here’s the back for you all to have a go

[tonya1]

Further to earlier posts I have attached a few photographs of items from my collection.  From various sources I have read I cannot be certain that there was any difference between Black Watch kilts and A&SH kilts in reality.  It does seem that A&SH officers' kilts were often of a lighter shade/colour.  (But I am more than happy to be corrected on this).

That said the first two photos are of an A&SH officer's kilt.  This man wore this kilt as an OR in WWI and won a military cross in it.  When he became an officer it was altered for him and the panel was added.  Clearly the panel tartan is 'brighter' and of Government pattern.  No attempt was made to match with the rest of the kilt (unless the rest of the kilt has faded more than the patch). He went on to become the Colonel of the regiment and possibly still wore this kilt.

The first two glengarry photos show a WWI leather banded A&SH cap, with what I understand is a pre-war 2nd battalion badge with a domed centre. (Some soldiers continued to wear these badges in recognition of their lineage rather than adopting the new regular badge). The last photo shows the regular WWI cap badge.  I hope the glengarry is of WWI vintage, it has the waxed liner, but I can't be 100% certain as it doesn't have the leather sweatband.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, tonya1 said:

Further to earlier posts I have attached a few photographs of items from my collection.  From various sources I have read I cannot be certain that there was any difference between Black Watch kilts and A&SH kilts in reality.  It does seem that A&SH officers' kilts were often of a lighter shade/colour.  (But I am more than happy to be corrected on this).

That said the first two photos are of an A&SH officer's kilt.  This man wore this kilt as an OR in WWI and won a military cross in it.  When he became an officer it was altered for him and the panel was added.  Clearly the panel tartan is 'brighter' and of Government pattern. 

That is correct.  Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) is government No 1 tartan (the first ever so hence number) and of sombre hues.  The A&SH is government No 1a tartan and of brighter shades.  It is sometimes referred to as Campbell tartan but that isn’t recognised within the army.  Incidentally the latter of the two tartans was chosen as the A&SH contribution to the dress selected for the contemporary ‘Royal Regiment of Scotland’ (partly as a sop I suspect, as the A&SH element have been reduced to the status and size of a ‘public duties’ contingent well below the strength of a battalion). 

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE