Photo Album - 1/4th Gloucestershire, Scottish Regiments. France, Italy, England.

[PRC]

So I take it we are looking for an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Battalion that at some point featured in it’s officer establishment a Toliday, a Lowe, a Stewart, a Scott,  D.R. May and a D.R.Y. Crookham, (or near variations on any of those names).

Earlier we had picture 29 “Lts Wisnutt + Ott. Ripon 1918” with possible matches on the November 1918 British Army Monthly list for a Wishart and Orr, but serving in different Battalions, as well as picture 30 “'T McGill. Ripon 1918”. That led to a Thomas McGill as a 2^nd Lieutenant serving with the 5/6^th Battalion as a possible candidate.

For Captain Andrew Brock Wishart I turned up another image from a family history site that looked liked a fairly good match.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Looking at the 5^th Battalion the November 1918 Army List features:-

Lieutenant C.W. Stewart, seniority 1^st June 1916, but employed by the Ministry of Munitions.
Lieutenant J.W. Stewart, seniority 1^st July 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant H.M. Stewart, seniority 16^th December 1915, attached 1/9^th Bn. Royal Scots.
2^nd Lieutenant T. McGill, seniority 27^th June 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant J. Lowe, seniority 1^st August 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant S.D. Lowe, seniority 28^th November 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant D.C. Scott, seniority 28^th November 1917.

Unless stated there is no indication of where these men were actually serving.

But no candidates for Toliday, May or Crookham.

There is no D.R. May indexed in that months list at all. There is also no-one with the surname Toliday. There is only one “Tolliday” indexed – he was serving with the 8^th Battalion as Second Lieutenant H.C. Tolliday, with seniority from the 31^st October 1917. (Column 1524c) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105237

But the 8^th Battalion is rather lacking in candidates for the other names – one Stewart on Special Employment.

The National Archive does not have any officers long papers for anyone with the surname Toliday. And the only “Tolliday” it has is 2^nd Lieutenant Harry Charles Tolliday, Princess Louise’s (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1146680

His Medal Index Card originally recorded him as Charles Tolliday, with Harry being added, and he first went out to France as Private 2232 in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders on the 1^st May 1915 before being commissioned in 1917. When he applied for his medals in February 1921 he gave a contact address of Invincible Stores, 249 Roman Road, Bow, (London), E.3.
There is also a duplicate card in the name of Charles Tolliday, which adds the service number 300586, indicating he was then serving in the ranks with one of the 8^th Battalions. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

No online images found so far to allow a comparison to be made with picture 35.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

The National Archive does not have any officers long papers for anyone with the surname Toliday. And the only “Tolliday” it has is 2^nd Lieutenant Harry Charles Tolliday, Princess Louise’s (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1146680

 

His Medal Index Card originally recorded him as Charles Tolliday, with Harry being added, and he first went out to France as Private 2232 in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders on the 1^st May 1915 before being commissioned in 1917. When he applied for his medals in February 1921 he gave a contact address of Invincible Stores, 249 Roman Road, Bow, (London), E.3.
There is also a duplicate card in the name of Charles Tolliday, which adds the service number 300586, indicating he was then serving in the ranks with one of the 8^th Battalions. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

Sounds like that could be a probable match. In the photo of Toliday/Tolliday there is what appears to be a wound stripe on his sleeve, though it is worn higher up than would normally be seen in my opinion. Could it be that all these officers at the time of the photos are in a depot-type posting and waiting to be formally assigned to battalions, hence the variation in battalions served? A mix of men who have been wounded and sent back to the UK and newly commissioned officers. We know that John Barrie Young (the album owner) had been in France at least since summer 1916 with the Gloucesters, so there's a decent chance he picked up a wound which could've had him sent home to recover, or his attachment to the Gloucesters expired when they moved theatre.

 

18 minutes ago, PRC said:

So I take it we are looking for an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Battalion that at some point featured in it’s officer establishment a Toliday, a Lowe, a Stewart, a Scott,  D.R. May and a D.R.Y. Crookham, (or near variations on any of those names).

 

Earlier we had picture 29 “Lts Wisnutt + Ott. Ripon 1918” with possible matches on the November 1918 British Army Monthly list for a Wishart and Orr, but serving in different Battalions, as well as picture 30 “'T McGill. Ripon 1918”. That led to a Thomas McGill as a 2^nd Lieutenant serving with the 5/6^th Battalion as a possible candidate.

 

For Captain Andrew Brock Wishart I turned up another image from a family history site that looked liked a fairly good match.

 

 

 

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Looking at the 5^th Battalion the November 1918 Army List features:-

Lieutenant C.W. Stewart, seniority 1^st June 1916, but employed by the Ministry of Munitions.
Lieutenant J.W. Stewart, seniority 1^st July 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant H.M. Stewart, seniority 16^th December 1915, attached 1/9^th Bn. Royal Scots.
2^nd Lieutenant T. McGill, seniority 27^th June 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant J. Lowe, seniority 1^st August 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant S.D. Lowe, seniority 28^th November 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant D.C. Scott, seniority 28^th November 1917.

Unless stated there is no indication of where these men were actually serving.

 

But no candidates for Toliday, May or Crookham.

 

There is no D.R. May indexed in that months list at all. There is also no-one with the surname Toliday. There is only one “Tolliday” indexed – he was serving with the 8^th Battalion as Second Lieutenant H.C. Tolliday, with seniority from the 31^st October 1917. (Column 1524c) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105237

 

But the 8^th Battalion is rather lacking in candidates for the other names – one Stewart on Special Employment.

There were some other photos from the album which I don't own that have additional names, and they might help narrow it down. There's a Clitheroe, Miller, Ritchie and one originally signed D.C. Scott but then has J.C. written above it in the owner's hand. I think this is likely going to be the D.C. Scott you found and he looks to be a different man to the Scott I posted. Perhaps a relative?

[PRC]

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

Could it be that all these officers at the time of the photos are in a depot-type posting and waiting to be formally assigned to battalions, hence the variation in battalions served?

There were three Convalescence Camps at Ripon that could take Officers - the largest being an Officer only facility and had capacity for 800 officers plus 50 Officer cadets. (Long, Long Trail). There would have also have been training cadres based there which would have required Officers. This may well have been one of the few scenarios in which Officers from different Battalions of the same Regiment had the opportunity to meet each other and, given the likely large amounts of time on their hands, socialise together and form friendships. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/command-depots/

These camps were part of Northern Command, so a bit surprised Scottish Regiment officers were there, (the Scottish Command had it's own Command Depots), but I know from looking once into the Eastern Command Depots  - actually in Ireland - that I found it next to impossible to get my head around the array of Regiments from which the residents came.

Convalescing Officers wouldn't have just been the wounded, it would also be those recovering from sickness or accidental injuries.

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

There's a Clitheroe, Miller, Ritchie and one originally signed D.C. Scott but then has J.C. written above it in the owner's hand. I think this is likely going to be the D.C. Scott you found and he looks to be a different man to the Scott I posted. Perhaps a relative?

The 5th Battalion Officer establishment in the November 1918 British Army Monthly list included:
Captain W. Millar, seniority from the 1st June 1916.
Second Lieutenant G.A. Ritchie, M.C., seniority from the 28th March 1917
Second Lieutenant W.S. Ritchie, seniority from the 28th November 1917.

Only one Clitheroe (column 1411) in that months' index and no Cletheroe’s. 2nd Lieutenant H. Clitheroe, with seniority from the 29th August 1917, was recorded on the Officer establishment of the 16th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. The National Archive has officers long papers for a 2nd Lieutenant Henry Clitheroe, The Manchester Regiment. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1152519

No picture found so far .

There is one J.C. Scott recorded serving with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, a Major with D.S.O. and seniority from the 1st September 1915, on the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions. (Column 1514). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105141

However he has a second entry showing him serving as a Deputy Assistant Adjutant- General with seniority from the 12th May 1917 – 39b, right side. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123092073

No obvious MiC or long papers.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

On 22/11/2023 at 19:35, gunnerwalker said:

Here’s the back for you all to have a go

I have typed in all manner of names and drawn a blank so far, from Crowshaw to Cruikshank, Groulhan to Cruochan

Do you have pictures of the writing on the backs of the other pictures please?

If they are in the same hand, then that may give us something.

[gunnerwalker]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

There were three Convalescence Camps at Ripon that could take Officers - the largest being an Officer only facility and had capacity for 800 officers plus 50 Officer cadets. (Long, Long Trail). There would have also have been training cadres based there which would have required Officers. This may well have been one of the few scenarios in which Officers from different Battalions of the same Regiment had the opportunity to meet each other and, given the likely large amounts of time on their hands, socialise together and form friendships. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/command-depots/

These camps were part of Northern Command, so a bit surprised Scottish Regiment officers were there, (the Scottish Command had it's own Command Depots), but I know from looking once into the Eastern Command Depots  - actually in Ireland - that I found it next to impossible to get my head around the array of Regiments from which the residents came.

Convalescing Officers wouldn't have just been the wounded, it would also be those recovering from sickness or accidental injuries.

The 5th Battalion Officer establishment in the November 1918 British Army Monthly list included:
Captain W. Millar, seniority from the 1st June 1916.
Second Lieutenant G.A. Ritchie, M.C., seniority from the 28th March 1917
Second Lieutenant W.S. Ritchie, seniority from the 28th November 1917.

Only one Clitheroe (column 1411) in that months' index and no Cletheroe’s. 2nd Lieutenant H. Clitheroe, with seniority from the 29th August 1917, was recorded on the Officer establishment of the 16th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. The National Archive has officers long papers for a 2nd Lieutenant Henry Clitheroe, The Manchester Regiment. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1152519

No picture found so far .

There is one J.C. Scott recorded serving with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, a Major with D.S.O. and seniority from the 1st September 1915, on the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions. (Column 1514). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123105141

However he has a second entry showing him serving as a Deputy Assistant Adjutant- General with seniority from the 12th May 1917 – 39b, right side. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123092073

No obvious MiC or long papers.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks for the detail on the camps. Nice to see a few of those officers also matched, and the 5th Battalion once again is showing a trend. Thanks for your efforts. I wonder if several of the officers didn't get the opportunity to go overseas by this point, hence why no MIC appears for them.

[gunnerwalker]

40 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I have typed in all manner of names and drawn a blank so far, from Crowshaw to Cruikshank, Groulhan to Cruochan

Do you have pictures of the writing on the backs of the other pictures please?

If they are in the same hand, then that may give us something.

Here’s a good few and all from the same point in time bar one. 
 

EDIT - I should also say, in case you haven’t read through the previous posts in this thread, that the owner does have a history of the occasional phonetic spelling.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[Bob Davies]

38 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

DIT - I should also say, in case you haven’t read through the previous posts in this thread, that the owner does have a history of the occasional phonetic spelling.

Thank you gunnerwalker,

I did not mean to insult you.

[PRC]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

2^nd Lieutenant J. Lowe, seniority 1^st August 1917.
2^nd Lieutenant S.D. Lowe, seniority 28^th November 1917.

MiC for Second Lieutenant James Lowe, formerly 201474 4^th Bn. Royal Highlanders. First landed  Mesopotamia in March 1915 and (released to) commission 31^st July 1917 in the 5^th Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.  Back of the MiC is unfortunately blank.

MiC for 2^nd Lieutenant Stanley Drew Lowe. First landed in France 12^th August 1918. Again back of the medal is blank. Could be a co-incidence but the birth of a Standley Drew Lowe, mothers’ maiden name Drew, was registered with the civil authorities in the Woolwich District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1898.On the 1901 Census of England & Wales aged 2 and born Plumstead, London, he was living in a household at 23 Roydene Road, Plumstead with parents George J, (31, born Charlton, Kent, a Torpedo Construction Fitter) and Rebecca A, (aged 27, born Greenwich). The family don’t appear to be on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

May be a further co-incidence but the 1911 Census of Scotland has a 12 year old Stanley Drew Lowe recorded in the Greenock West District. The same district has a 41 year old George James Lowe, and a 37 year old Rebecca Ann Lowe. Further information to confirm they lived in the same household would however require payment. A Stanley “Drowe” Lowe, aged 28 and an Accountant sailed from London bound for Trinidad & Tobago on the 13^th April 1927. The passenger list on FMP may give last address.

But alas so far no pictures for either of them.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

50 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you gunnerwalker,

I did not mean to insult you.

Not to worry I did not feel insulted at all! I just thought it worthwhile to point out as I'd hit a few dead-ends with previous names.

[PRC]

On 22/11/2023 at 16:11, gunnerwalker said:

35. - "Toliday"

36. - "Toliday's bed"

I assume this is the back of photo 35 - giving us the two "LL's" version of the surname.

11 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

In the photo of Toliday/Tolliday there is what appears to be a wound stripe on his sleeve, though it is worn higher up than would normally be seen in my opinion.

Private 2232 H.C. Tolliday, 8th Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, August 3rd, 1915 as wounded. So definately an entitlement there to one wound stripe.

I'm more used to seeing the wound stripe just below the elbow when cuff rank is being worn - however here's an image of a Brigadier General from 1918 that I had cause to post the other day. Wound stripe visible but no cuff rank.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

45 minutes ago, PRC said:

A Stanley “Drowe” Lowe, aged 28 and an Accountant sailed from London bound for Trinidad & Tobago on the 13^th April 1927. The passenger list on FMP may give last address.

I will see if I can check this tomorrow. Both men are promising options.

 

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

I assume this is the back of photo 35 - giving us the two "LL's" version of the surname.

Private 2232 H.C. Tolliday, 8th Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, August 3rd, 1915 as wounded. So definately an entitlement there to one wound stripe.

I'm more used to seeing the wound stripe just below the elbow when cuff rank is being worn - however here's an image of a Brigadier General from 1918 that I had cause to post the other day. Wound stripe visible but no cuff rank.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes that’s the back on photo 35, I overlooked that first time around. Private Tolliday is a possible match given the wound stripe. It can’t be an overly-common surname though hopefully more details will emerge to reinforce any links.

Regarding wearing the wound stripe higher on the arm - that makes perfect sense if accommodating a cuff rank. 

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

I assume this is the back of photo 35 - giving us the two "LL's" version of the surname.

Private 2232 H.C. Tolliday, 8th Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, August 3rd, 1915 as wounded. So definately an entitlement there to one wound stripe.

I'm more used to seeing the wound stripe just below the elbow when cuff rank is being worn - however here's an image of a Brigadier General from 1918 that I had cause to post the other day. Wound stripe visible but no cuff rank.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

He’s a general officer Peter so there wouldn’t be any cuff rank.  General officers (of all levels) and Guards (horse and foot) wore rank only on shoulder straps.

[PRC]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a general officer Peter so there wouldn’t be any cuff rank.  General officers (of all levels) and Guards (horse and foot) wore rank only on shoulder straps.

Understood - it's just an example of that wound stripe location that had cropped up recently so was uppermost in my mind.

Out of interest what did the regulations have to say about the wound stripe placement for officers, and was the presense of cuff rank a factor or not?

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

Understood - it's just an example of that wound stripe location that had cropped up recently so was uppermost in my mind.

Out of interest what did the regulations have to say about the wound stripe placement for officers, and was the presense of cuff rank a factor or not?

Cheers,
Peter

For officers the wound stripes were to be positioned consistently on the left cuff, regardless of rank.

Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916.

Edited 24 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

For officers the wound stripes were to be positioned consistently on the left cuff, regardless of rank.

Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916.

Not sure how that would work with cuff rank, and from at least the two individuals who have been photographed here and many other examples, a regulation that was widely ignored when it came to that positioning  - but that would be something for another thread

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not sure how that would work with cuff rank, and from at least the two individuals who have been photographed here and many other examples, a regulation that was widely ignored when it came to that positioning  - but that would be something for another thread

Cheers,
Peter

 

Yes I’m sure there would have been some inconsistency, but in general they were to be positioned just above where cuff rank would be if it was worn, but there was usually a mitred cuff piece in its place.  Few general officers would have got that wrong as the military tailors knew it and each officer had a batman who would be for it if he got it wrong (it would probably fall upon him to deal with such matters).  Carton De Wiart below is a good example.  It looks about half an inch above the point of the mitre.

Edited 24 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

but in general they were to be positioned just above where cuff rank would be if it was worn

So is that the "upper point of the flap on cuff" referred to in the 1916 Army Council instruction, as that would place it just below the elbow?

However seems odd to refer to cuff rank as a flap.

Intrigued,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

So is that the "upper point of the flap on cuff" referred to in the 1916 Army Council instruction, as that would place it just below the elbow?

However seems odd to refer to cuff rank as a flap.

Intrigued,
Peter

 

It was described as a slash or flap and was a feature of uniform design going back a long time, often bearing buttons.  Foot Guards have one on their full dress tunics and line infantry officers did so between the 1850s and 1870s.

I’ll look for a regimental officer with wound stripes by way of example.

Edited 24 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It was described as a slash or flap and was a feature of uniform design going back a long time, often bearing buttons.

Not a problem - slash was the term I was familar with, but if it was also known as a flap then makes perfect sense.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Not a problem - slash was the term I was familar with, but if it was also known as a flap then makes perfect sense.

Cheers,
Peter

As promised, here are some comparators Peter, showing how the wound stripe is positioned in the same position despite the varied cuff designs. 

Edited 24 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE