Gnr 368154 John Robert Craigie Royal Garrison Artillery (Orkney)

[KCraigie]

My husband’s grandfather served in WW1 for Great Britain and for Canada in WW2   We have some information regarding his service from 1914-18, but I would like to know more about where he served in WW1. Born in Orkney, Scotland 1896. I’ve been told he received 3 medals : British War Medal, Victory Medal, and India-Burma Medal. He was a member of the Royal Garrison Artillery.  His regimental number was 368154.   A previous letter was sent to get more documents, but the offices were destroyed in WW2 and many records lost  I’m assuming most of his service was in Africa or India.  I have pictures only from WW2 service.  
Would anyone have any advice or information for me as I start the search for more information?

Edited 20 November , 2023 by KCraigie
Add picture

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Welcome,
I'll kick off with a copy of his Great War Medal Index Card (MIC) which is available on Ancestry for free (if you register for a free account) and in colour.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4197613:1262?_phsrc=bDw1345&_phstart=successSource&gsln=craigie&ml_rpos=100&queryId=7819ac6fee2c1fd1e12cfe9fae640384

Just to stress that his number was 368154, and not 365154 as in the first handwritten  card above.

[kenf48]

Welcome to the GWF

The Regimental number 368154 was in the series allocated to the Orkney Fortress Company on the renumbering of the Territorial Force in March 1917.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

See also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Orkney_Artillery_Volunteers#Territorial_Force

You will see there were 6 Companies, it’s likely he was in the Company close to where  he lived.

He may have enlisted prior to the war.  It is not always a given but medals were named and with the regimental number when he first entered a theatre of war. We know he did not go on active service overseas until after the 31.12.1915. , and likely after the renumbering.  

Men from the unit were dispersed but retained their identity.  Some were killed in France at least one, George William Dishan is on the CWGC Roll of Honour as having died in India, another in Beirut.  As India was not a theatre of war (with a few exceptions) those men, including Dishan, who went to India received the British War Medal only.  Gnr Craigie at some point entered a theatre of war to receive the Victory Medal or ‘pair’.  
No theatre specific campaign medals were awarded for the Great War.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

When the Orkney RGA was broken up men went to the RGA Base Depot and been posted on from there. A RGA researcher may provide more information but it appears from CWGC and other records that as trained artillery soldiers  they were posted to various RGA units when and where needed.

[KCraigie]

Thank you so much for your information!  So excited to learn more!

As I am new to this search, possibly someone could answer a follow up question.   Would the soldiers have been in grouped in sequenctial order?  For example if a regiment # 368154 would have been in the same place at the same time with the numbers immediately above or below?  Or were they grouped in another fashion.   Hoping for a bit better understanding of how this all worked. 
 

 

[kenf48]

If you are new to researching a soldier of the Great War suggest you have a good look around the Long Long Trail (LLT)website where you will find lots of information and hints.

7 hours ago, KCraigie said:

As I am new to this search, possibly someone could answer a follow up question.   Would the soldiers have been in grouped in sequenctial order?  For example if a regiment # 368154 would have been in the same place at the same time with the numbers immediately above or below?  Or were they grouped in another fashion.   Hoping for a bit better understanding of how this all worked. 
 

In the infantry we can usually draw conclusion from sequential numbers, often allocated alphabetically.   This is the ‘near number’ sampling from surviving records you may have seen on the forum.  It works reasonably well for drafts and transfers as men were not usually moved singly and can be corroborated for example from the Medal Rolls,War Diaries and CWGC.

The first difficulty with this process is finding surviving records following the Luftwaffe weeding.  It’s estimated only 2/5 survived the Arnside Warehouse fire (see LLT)

Unfortunately you have two further obstacles to this process.  As observed the Orkney Garrison Artillery was a Territorial Force formation and the men were originally allocated a three or four digit number.  This numbering system could not be supported as the war progressed and in 1917 the whole of the TF was renumbered see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/ and associated pages.

Although we know the block they were allocated we can’t without further research, know how the new  numbers were given to individual soldiers, alphabetically or service (?).

The second obstacle is that, as noted above, the original soldiers of the Orkney RGA were dispersed when the Garrison was taken over.  Although they retained their Orkney numbers they were first posted to the RGA Depot and drafted from there.

For example,

No records survive (apart from the Medal Rolls and possibly the relatively new database of pension records created by the WFA, over to @Matlock1418) for men numbered 368150-8. All have a “pair”, like Gnr Craigie, which suggests they went to France & Flanders, or at least served in a theatre of war. Spreading our net wider searching with wildcards for 36816?there are  no records apart from the Rolls;36814? gives us Gnr Sutherland on CWGC 300 Siege Battery died 29/12/1918 and buried in Beirut. We also find  Gnr 368149 Work on the Silver War Badge Rolls, this gives his original enlistment date as 6 January 1911, and so on. 
 

Wider still, searching 3681** on Find My Past returns 88 results as we’re sampling 100 numbers, about what we would expect allowing for transfers, not going overseas  etc. On CWGC we have 118 Siege Battery;160 Siege Battery; 69 Siege Battery etc. as for service records there are just three - 368134 Nicholson; 368192 Garlock;368196 Johnston a lot less than 2/5.

The further you go away from the number researching the less reliable near number sampling becomes. You can also adjust your search parameters. 

Sorry if this is a bit long winded but hope it helps.  I imagine in a relatively small community local newspapers might help your research.  Good luck

I have changed the title of your thread to attract the interests of there Artillery Specialists on the forum

Do his Canadian records give any clues?

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

possibly the relatively new database of pension records created by the WFA, over to @Matlock1418)

Unfortunately for us [but seemingly fortunately for him and his family] there are no pension records at WFA/Fold3 for John Robert CRAIGIE, 368154, RGA

To explain: for a surviving soldier there could be a 'War Pension' but it would have been for a temporary or permanent disabilty resulting from service - there was no pension for just serving during the war and any possible pension for long service would be noted elsewhere.

M

[kenf48]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Unfortunately for us [but seemingly fortunately for him and his family] there are no pension records at WFA/Fold3 for John Robert CRAIGIE, 368154, RGA

Thanks for looking

[KCraigie]

Thank you all for answering my questions.  There is a lot to understand about the reorganization of the TF and the deployment of different battalions.  This site has a wealth of information and I appreciate the efforts of the authors.  My apologies if my terminology on the matter is not on point.
 

 We haven’t yet obtained the Canadian records but hopefully there is some reference to the previous postings.  Following, WW2, he continued to work for veterans affairs in a veteran’s home until 1951. He then worked for the commissionaires corps until he was 78.    Yes, would think there may be more information in the Canadian files.  Thank you for suggesting it.   As well, the medals and bars  are in a family members possession.  When I obtain a clearer picture of them, they may provide further clues.  

i have attached a picture of his medal record index card and a photo of service display, although not of a clear quality.  

 

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, KCraigie said:

Nice display - thanks for showing us, and for the other info. 

M

[kenf48]

Not a medal person but as expected and shown on the mic and the Rolls the. British War Medal and Victory Medals from WW1

(For copyright reasons please acknowledge sources)

Top right is the Imperial Service Tablet showing  a TF soldier who had volunteered for overseas service and worn on the right breast.

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

Then his WW2 Medals - WW2 Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, Canadian War Medal and what appears to be the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires Long Service Medal.

I'm not seeing an 'India Burma Medal' as on the note in your original post.  The lanyard is also, in all probability from WW1.

A nice display but doesn't take us any further forward as to the unit he eventually served with in a theatre of war during the Great War.

[CorporalPunishment]

If he was in the TF when the Great War began but never entered a theatre of war before January 1st 1916 then he would have been entitled to the Territorial Force War Medal.      Pete.

[KCraigie]

Hi Pete, I’m not sure when he entered the forces, but he was only 18 in 1914, so likely not in the services before war broke out.  Not sure of the age required at that time.  
 

Ken, thanks for the additional information on the medals.   The India -Burma medal was noted by his wife after his death.  It’s possible that was and error or maybe it refers to one of the bars?   Once I get better pictures I may be able to sort that out. My apologies for missing the link on the index cards.  I got them from,  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4197613:1262?_phsrc=bDw1345&_phstart=successSource&gsln=craigie&ml_rpos=100&queryId=7819ac6fee2c1fd1e12cfe9fae640384

 

Karen

Edited 21 November , 2023 by KCraigie

[Matlock1418]

32 minutes ago, KCraigie said:

I’m not sure when he entered the forces, but he was only 18 in 1914, so likely not in the services before war broke out.  Not sure of the age required at that time.  

Not saying he was - A boy could legitimately enlist earlier than 18 in the Regular as a Boy/Boy Soldier though this didn't count for Man service, i.e. from 18, when it came to long service, I think 15 comes to mind for Boys, so ... ??

For general Territorial Force purposes I think 17y 6m was the expected minimum - so this might be for John Robert CRAIGIE [the TF being a handy source of income  and excitement/variety for a teenager]  We can see he had the TF OS obligation tablet/badge.

Of course some younger lads snuck in unofficially [especially into the TF as they had a hard time pre-war recruiting their numbers], probably before the war and certainly during the early war rush for volunteers

They shouldn't have normally gone to a ToW before age 19 [but we know that many certainly did unofficially and officially a few 18y 6m+ if they had 6 months training under their belt in the crisis of April 1918 - training by then typically started just after 18th birthday]

Looks like John Robert CRAIGIE went overseas after 31/12/1915 so it seems likely OK so far as the Army was concerned if he was born 1896.

M

Edited 21 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
expand

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, KCraigie said:

Hi Pete, I’m not sure when he entered the forces, but he was only 18 in 1914, so likely not in the services before war broke out.  Not sure of the age required at that time.  
 

Ken, thanks for the additional information on the medals.   The India -Burma medal was noted by his wife after his death.  It’s possible that was and error or maybe it refers to one of the bars?   Once I get better pictures I may be able to sort that out. My apologies for missing the link on the index cards.  I got them from,  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4197613:1262?_phsrc=bDw1345&_phstart=successSource&gsln=craigie&ml_rpos=100&queryId=7819ac6fee2c1fd1e12cfe9fae640384

 

Karen

Karen, at 18 years of age in 1914 he was old enough to serve in the Territorial Force and the presence of the Imperial Service badge, top left in the frame, indicates that he did so before the outbreak of the Great War.     Pete.

[kenf48]

You could try the Orkney Archive to see if they have an Absent Voters List for 1918/19

https://orkneylibrary.org.uk/orkney-archive/
 

Their records only show a Register of Electors from 1919 but might be worth asking.

[Gunner 87]

4 hours ago, KCraigie said:

Hi Pete, I’m not sure when he entered the forces, but he was only 18 in 1914, so likely not in the services before war broke out.  Not sure of the age required at that time.  
 

Ken, thanks for the additional information on the medals.   The India -Burma medal was noted by his wife after his death.  It’s possible that was and error or maybe it refers to one of the bars?   Once I get better pictures I may be able to sort that out. My apologies for missing the link on the index cards.  I got them from,  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4197613:1262?_phsrc=bDw1345&_phstart=successSource&gsln=craigie&ml_rpos=100&queryId=7819ac6fee2c1fd1e12cfe9fae640384

 

Karen

@kenf48

Hi Karen.

I wonder if John's original Orkney Royal Garrison Artillery regimental number was 877? I mention this due to an article in the 'The Orkney Herald' July 1, 1914 listing Regimental Orders, see attached. 

regards

Gunner 87

 

Edited 22 November , 2023 by Gunner 87

[Gunner 87]

Further to the above, the article attached from 'The Orkney Herald' Wednesday, July 26, 1916 lists a Gnr. J Craigie taking part in a Hoeing competition. If this is John then he is still based in the UK at the time of the article, or on leave. 

 

[KCraigie]

@kenf48 thanks for the tip on the voters lists.  I will try there.

 

@Gunner 87  thank you so much for these articles.  If I understand correctly he was born in Shapinsay so it appears that he might have been transferred from that original company to Kirkwall.  Do you know if having the original number assigned in 1914 will give me more leads on his travels? 
 

 

[Gunner 87]

3 minutes ago, KCraigie said:

Do you know if having the original number assigned in 1914 will give me more leads on his travels

I'm not sure how much assistance it will be but thought it important after reading @kenf48 post about the early regimental numbers. It appears John's records are in his later number. 

[Gunner 87]

34 minutes ago, KCraigie said:

@kenf48 thanks for the tip on the voters lists.  I will try there.

 

@Gunner 87  thank you so much for these articles.  If I understand correctly he was born in Shapinsay so it appears that he might have been transferred from that original company to Kirkwall.  Do you know if having the original number assigned in 1914 will give me more leads on his travels? 
 

 

I've searched Ancestry and Find My Past and not found any reference to 877. 

 

Edited 22 November , 2023 by Gunner 87

[KCraigie]

@CorporalPunishment 

Hi Pete.  Thanks for pointing out that combination of TF and  the imperial service pin, point to John Craigie joining up before war broke out.  Puts a little more context to the story.  

[kenf48]

@Gunner 87

Good find 

As noted earlier we don't know how the renumbering was applied but of the three records found plus one other we have:-

368134 enlisted 7 April 1908 posted 3 Coy and allocated number 75 (one of the original Volunteers transferring to TF on formation)

368192  enlisted 24.1.12  original number 737

368196 enlisted 26.1.12.  posted 4 Coy   numbered 750 (age 17 on enlistment a scholar).

360885 Burgess a shoemakers apprentice gave his age on enlistment on the 14 March as 15 years and 2 months and was allocated number 980 and posted to 1 Company

I can't see a discernible pattern but it would seem to put Gnr Craigie's enlistment 1912/13.  It doe not appear age was a bar!

As an aside the initial term for enlistment in the TF was four years so it was quite possible if men who originally joined in 1908 did not enlist there were vacancies I wonder if there was a recruiting campaign in the Orkney Herald.

 

[Gunner 87]

24 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

I wonder if there was a recruiting campaign in the Orkney Herald.

The 'Orkney Herald' Wednesday, December 18, 1907. 

Edited 22 November , 2023 by Gunner 87

[TomWW1]

8 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

'The Orkney Herald' Wednesday, December 18, 1907. 

Interesting stuff gunner!

[Gunner 87]

The 'Orkney Herald' Wednesday, January, 22, 1913