John WILLIAMS / John BLESSING / Patrick O'BRIEN

[Matlock1418]

As promised: On seeing, and for reasons that may seem fairly obvious, this record also caught my eye [and as it proved akin to my interests in ex-servicemen's treatment]

Thus, as the winter nights are now drawing in I thought it would offer another rabbit hole for exploration [for self and others]

What went on in his military service? [this is where I really need others' help please - however of course, genealogicaly origins and ending also welcomed]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

A pension index card for John WILLIAMS, HLI, 11227, etc  [See Patrick O'BRIEN]

There is a similarly detailed PIC for John BLESSING, HLI, 11227 etc [See Patrick O'BRIEN]

A further PIC for Patrick O'BRIEN, HLI, 11227 etc

So what of his military career? [and wider?]

TIA for contibutions.

M

Post-script: I have identified other pension records at WFA for a John BLESSING / Patrick O'BRIEN [also with multiple (7) but different military details] - I have opened another thread [though in time it may be come clearer if these threads are to be linked or not] 

See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/307856-john-blessing-patrick-obrien/#comment-3252889

Edit: I do not think potential merging of threads would be appropriate given the number of names, units and numbers involved

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

After having gone down that list on the PIC in the OP using various combinations of surnames and numbers = Have found a Pension Record/Attestation for John WILLIAMS, 11227 at Ancestry [so presumably at FMP too] - sadly can't read it as I don't subscribe [and wish my local library still had access]

M

Edited 30 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

Courtesy of @George Millar with many thanks [copied from that other thread]

Had a look at the John Williams Service record and it might be a bit of a red herring also (although not sure).  It lists him as having been born in Belfast (aged 18 in record) which makes his year of birth as 1891 and the regiment listed is the Highland Light Infantry. He was finally discharged on the 11th November 1910. However, he lists his next of kin as follows:

1) Younger brother Patrick Williams, ????? Co Monaghan

2) Younger brother Michael Williams, Newtownbutler, Co Fermanagh

3) Younger brother Thomas Williams, Scotshouse, Co Fermanagh

See attached images courtesy of Ancestry

George

 

Puzzling that MoP have listed with a John BLESSING and Patrick O'BRIEN also

The investigations continue ...

M

Edited 1 December , 2023 by Matlock1418
reattached copied post to include addit images

[Tawhiri]

Noting the date of his arrest and conviction, I suspect your John Williams is the man referred to in these two newspaper articles from the Western Mail of Monday, 19 September 1910, and the Shepton Mallet Journal of Friday, 23 September 1910 respectively.

Western Mail

... WATCH IN MAN'S HAIR. CARDIFFIAN'S ADVENTURE AT FISHGUARD. Two young soldiery. mused John Williams and Janes Joyce. belonging to th. Highland Light Infantry. were charged at Fiahguard on Saturd►7 with the theft of a puree. a railway ticket, and a watch ...

Shepton Mallet Journal

... Mayor's reply to the Lord Mayor Cardiff later the evening. In case in which two young soldiers, John Williams and Jaa. Joyce, of the Highland Light Infantry, were charged with stealing watch from the person of John Shannon, evidence was given the effect ...

Edited to add that according to Paul Nixon's army service numbers website, service number 11115 joined the Highland Light Infantry on 10 November 1908, and service number 11390 joined on 19 August 1909, so John Williams' service number of 11227 and enlistment date of 1 March 1909 places him squarely in the middle of this block of numbers and dates.

Edited 1 December , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Matlock1418]

20 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Noting the date of his arrest and conviction, I suspect your John Williams is the man referred to in these two newspaper articles from the Western Mail of Monday, 19 September 1910, and the Shepton Mallet Journal of Friday, 23 September 1910 respectively.

Western Mail

... WATCH IN MAN'S HAIR. CARDIFFIAN'S ADVENTURE AT FISHGUARD. Two young soldiery. mused John Williams and Janes Joyce. belonging to th. Highland Light Infantry. were charged at Fiahguard on Saturd►7 with the theft of a puree. a railway ticket, and a watch ...

Shepton Mallet Journal

... Mayor's reply to the Lord Mayor Cardiff later the evening. In case in which two young soldiers, John Williams and Jaa. Joyce, of the Highland Light Infantry, were charged with stealing watch from the person of John Shannon, evidence was given the effect ...

Edited to add that according to Paul Nixon's army service numbers website, service number 11115 joined the Highland Light Infantry on 10 November 1908, and service number 11390 joined on 19 August 1909, so John Williams' service number of 11227 and enlistment date of 1 March 1909 places him squarely in the middle of this block of numbers and dates.

Thank you.

John WILLIAMS looks a bit of a rogue pre-war = I wonder if he is the incorrigible character, Patrick O'BRIEN, post-war in the other thread???

M

Edited 2 December , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Tawhiri]

I’m thinking given the apparent propensity of both John Williams and Patrick O'Brien to end up in prision, that a trawl through the Police Gazette around those dates might be instructive. 
 

In theory John Williams should be easy to find in the 1911 England and Wales census, as presumably he would have been in prison at the time the census was taken given the date of his offence was September 1910.

Edited 2 December , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I’m thinking given the apparent propensity of both John Williams and Patrick O'Brien to end up in prision, that a trawl through the Police Gazette around those dates might be instructive. 

Thanks once again = Great idea to look there - might even offer any alias(es) used at the time

FMP seems to have a PG for a John WILLIAMS but I can't read to see the details

2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

In theory John Williams should be easy to find in the 1911 England and Wales census, as presumably he would have been in prison at the time the census was taken given the date of his offence was September 1910.

Do you know how long any custodial sentence John WILLIAMS got for stealing a watch etc.? [Or might have got in those times??]

I guess probably worth looking at the 1911 Census.

And potentially also worth looking in the 1921 Census too I suppose.

Potentially challenging if he was using an alias(es) [or would he have bothered making Census returns?] ... Of course if in shared accomodation or in an institution like a prison or perhaps an asylum/mental hospital then the duty would have fallen on the head to make the decaration/return so less likely to have avoided enumeration in 1911 and/or 1921.

M

Edited 2 December , 2023 by Matlock1418
add & typo

[PRC]

On 01/12/2023 at 13:44, Tawhiri said:

Noting the date of his arrest and conviction, I suspect your John Williams is the man referred to in these two newspaper articles from the Western Mail of Monday, 19 September 1910, and the Shepton Mallet Journal of Friday, 23 September 1910 respectively.

Western Mail

... WATCH IN MAN'S HAIR. CARDIFFIAN'S ADVENTURE AT FISHGUARD. Two young soldiery. mused John Williams and Janes Joyce. belonging to th. Highland Light Infantry. were charged at Fiahguard on Saturd►7 with the theft of a puree. a railway ticket, and a watch ...

Shepton Mallet Journal

... Mayor's reply to the Lord Mayor Cardiff later the evening. In case in which two young soldiers, John Williams and Jaa. Joyce, of the Highland Light Infantry, were charged with stealing watch from the person of John Shannon, evidence was given the effect ...

Western Mail. Monday, September 19^th, 1910.

WATCH IN MAN’S HAIR.
CARDIFFIAN’S ADVENTURE AT FISHGUARD.

Two young soldiers, named John Williams and James Joyce, belonging to the Highland Light Infantry, were charged at Fishguard on Saturday with the theft of a purse, a railway ticket, and a watch, of the total value of £3 10s 6d., from the person of John Shannon, an elderly Cardiffian.

Prosecutor alleged that on the preceding night he met the accused at the Harbour Station, and they all went to Goodwick, where they had several drinks together. Upon returning to the station prosecutor went to sleep in a waiting-room, but awakened to find William’s hand in his trouser pocket, and found that his watch was missing. Joyce prevented him at first from going out on the platform, and when he succeeded in doing so Williams struck him in the mouth, gave him a black eye, and knocked him to the ground. He subsequently found his purse on the floor of the waiting-room, and Williams handed him back his railway ticket, which had been inside the purse.

Police-sergeant Lewis testified to having searched Williams, and to have found the missing watch concealed in his hair (which was somewhat long) beneath his cap. Williams said he had found it on the floor. Later witness arrested Joyce aboard the Rosslare boat.

Both the accused, who pleaded not guilty, were committed for trial at the next quarter sessions.

The report on page 3 of the edition of the Shepton Mallet dated Friday, September 23, 1910, is just a column filler, containing the soldiers names and regiment, the victim, and that the watch was found in Williams’ long hair.

By implication perhaps the long hair indicates John Williams wasn’t taking to Army Life.

2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

In theory John Williams should be easy to find in the 1911 England and Wales census, as presumably he would have been in prison at the time the census was taken given the date of his offence was September 1910.

 Unfortunately looks like the sentence passed on the 16^th October 1910 was three months, so would have been out of prison well before the 2^nd April 1911. And if he and James Joyce, (subsequently arrested on the Rosslare boaat), were at Fishguard in order to sail to Ireland, then could well be back in Belfast by the time the Census was taken.

According to the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland, the whole of the 1911 Census of Ireland is held by the Republic of Ireland and should be freely available via their website. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/1901-and-1911-census
However it then goes on to state that some bits were never micro-filmed. I don’t believe I’ve ever come across a return for Belfast there https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Having committed a felony that saw him imprisoned he would not have been able to use that name or directly mention his previous service when enlisting again. I suspect when it came to light the Army went to great lengths to ensure that all the records were cross-referenced, particularly if he was a serial enlister who was signing up not from military zeal but a desire to escape the long arm of the law.

Cheers,
Peter

BTW not seeing anything in the pre-war WO97 series of Army service records for either Williams or Joyce so repeat re-enlisting may have been something that they had in common.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

WATCH IN MAN’S HAIR.
CARDIFFIAN’S ADVENTURE AT FISHGUARD.

Two young soldiers, named John Williams and James Joyce, belonging to the Highland Light Infantry, were charged at Fishguard on Saturday with the theft of a purse, a railway ticket, and a watch, of the total value of £3 10s 6d., from the person of John Shannon, an elderly Cardiffian.

Prosecutor alleged that on the preceding night he met the accused at the Harbour Station, and they all went to Goodwick, where they had several drinks together. Upon returning to the station prosecutor went to sleep in a waiting-room, but awakened to find William’s hand in his trouser pocket, and found that his watch was missing. Joyce prevented him at first from going out on the platform, and when he succeeded in doing so Williams struck him in the mouth, gave him a black eye, and knocked him to the ground. He subsequently found his purse on the floor of the waiting-room, and Williams handed him back his railway ticket, which had been inside the purse.

Police-sergeant Lewis testified to having searched Williams, and to have found the missing watch concealed in his hair (which was somewhat long) beneath his cap. Williams said he had found it on the floor. Later witness arrested Joyce aboard the Rosslare boat.

Both the accused, who pleaded not guilty, were committed for trial at the next quarter sessions.

The report on page 3 of the edition of the Shepton Mallet dated Friday, September 23, 1910, is just a column filler, containing the soldiers names and regiment, the victim, and that the watch was found in Williams’ long hair.

Thank you Peter - that put the mention of  "Hair" etc in better context

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 Unfortunately looks like the sentence passed on the 16^th October 1910 was three months, so would have been out of prison well before the 2^nd April 1911. And if he and James Joyce, (subsequently arrested on the Rosslare boaat), were at Fishguard in order to sail to Ireland, then could well be back in Belfast by the time the Census was taken.

Thank you for clarifying that too - that was my suspicion and unfortunately the case [that he was not in prison for that crime so far as any 1911 Census might go].

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Having committed a felony that saw him imprisoned he would not have been able to use that name or directly mention his previous service when enlisting again. I suspect when it came to light the Army went to great lengths to ensure that all the records were cross-referenced, particularly if he was a serial enlister who was signing up not from military zeal but a desire to escape the long arm of the law.

Rather seems it might have been something like that.

Certainly between this thread, and potentially the other similar John BLESSING / Patrick O'BRIEN one too, we have a lot of names, numbers and units to work through.

Thought there might be an intriguing rabbit hole to explore when I saw that PIC [and the other one likewise]  

M

Edited 2 December , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo, as usual!