2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment.

[Captain Chip]

Hello everyone. I am creating this topic to ask specific questions about the 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment. I am trying to write a Historical Fiction book following the men of Company A. I do have a lot of questions. Right now I mainly have the following:

1. What were A Company's exact actions during the Battle of Mons?
2. How many of A Company escaped from capture at Le Pilly?*
3. Is it possible that there is a roster for the men of each company out there?
4. What were the names of the 30 men who escaped capture at Le Pilly?**
5. What was it like in Devonport when the Regulars of the Battalion arrived? 

 

 

*Still not fully answered. All help with it would be most appreciated.

** I only have one name of a man who escaped: Sergeant Thornton

 

If any of these questions have been repeated before within the forum, It is because I did not fully understand it or was not quite right. And I have tried researching the 2nd Battalion but there is not a lot of info online. I will be asking more questions as I try to write this book of mine. And for those who have info, I thank you so much. And I thank most of you guys for putting up with my questions. It's just that I am very new to learning these details in WW1. I am more of a Civil War buff.

 

Note: I will edit the questions above as needed when answered or are no longer needed.

Edited 7 January by Captain Chip
Improve questions.

[PRC]

12 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

With the boarding of the SS Herschell, what exactly was the incident with the Connaught Rangers?

From Lives of the First World War, (which saves me transcribing!).

At 10.45 pm on Wednesday August 12th, "A" and "B" companies left the barracks and entrained at Devonport station where at 12.15 am on Thursday 13th they left for a "destination unknown". "C" and "D" companies followed on a second train about an hour later. "A" and "B" companies arrived in Southampton at 7am on 13th August, followed shortly after by "C" and "D" companies. The battalion embarked on the SS Herschel at 9pm.

"No Naval Officer was present to hand the ship over to us and allot berths. As a result a dug-out Naval Officer appeared on the scene about midnight and then wanted to shift all the companies to make room for another unit. We steamed out with the Connaught Rangers all mixed up with us and yet on the following morning, it was found that two portions of the lower deck (had been) unoccupied and and capable of holding 500 men."

At 5.15 am on the 14th August 1914, the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment sailed from Southampton to Boulogne on the SS Herschel. "As we commenced to cross the channel at 3 pm, an escort of cruisers joined us, 3 on the north of our tracks and 10 on the South. (We) arrived in Boulogne about 6 pm and marched to a rest camp about 3 miles distant." (from War Diary of the 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment, August 1914-February 1915)

Text and image courtesy https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/53968

The SS Herschel, (note spelling), still appears to have been undegoing sea trials and final fittings when she was used to ferry the 2nd Battalion to France.

Image courtesy of https://www.bluestarline.org/lamports/herschel3.html

Cheers,
Peter

[Captain Chip]

So the ship was very cramped? And what exactly do they mean by "Dug out naval officer"? And I assume they put the Connaught Rangers or maybe even the Irish Regiment in the empty area?

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

From Lives of the First World War, (which saves me transcribing!).

At 10.45 pm on Wednesday August 12th, "A" and "B" companies left the barracks and entrained at Devonport station where at 12.15 am on Thursday 13th they left for a "destination unknown". "C" and "D" companies followed on a second train about an hour later. "A" and "B" companies arrived in Southampton at 7am on 13th August, followed shortly after by "C" and "D" companies. The battalion embarked on the SS Herschel at 9pm.

"No Naval Officer was present to hand the ship over to us and allot berths. As a result a dug-out Naval Officer appeared on the scene about midnight and then wanted to shift all the companies to make room for another unit. We steamed out with the Connaught Rangers all mixed up with us and yet on the following morning, it was found that two portions of the lower deck (had been) unoccupied and and capable of holding 500 men."

At 5.15 am on the 14th August 1914, the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment sailed from Southampton to Boulogne on the SS Herschel. "As we commenced to cross the channel at 3 pm, an escort of cruisers joined us, 3 on the north of our tracks and 10 on the South. (We) arrived in Boulogne about 6 pm and marched to a rest camp about 3 miles distant." (from War Diary of the 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment, August 1914-February 1915)

Text and image courtesy https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/53968

The SS Herschel, (note spelling), still appears to have been undegoing sea trials and final fittings when she was used to ferry the 2nd Battalion to France.

Image courtesy of https://www.bluestarline.org/lamports/herschel3.html

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Captain Chip]

Anyways, If anyone here can answer this question, What were the casualties of Company A at the Battle of Mons?

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Captain Chip said:

Anyways, If anyone here can answer this question, What were the casualties of Company A at the Battle of Mons?

I would be very surprised, (pleasantly surprised mind you), if anyone could answer that question.

If there isn't a Company break down in the War Diary, (there isn't) or it isn't self-evident because they were the only Company involved, then it just isn't likely to exist.

Could it be pulled together - in theory yes, in practice unlikely.

Roll-calls almost certainly don't survive, so other than potentially officers, you have no source for the names of the other ranks in "A" Company to start from.
Working from the 1914 Star Medal Roll you could construct a fairly good roll -call for the 2nd Battalion at the time it landed, but not by Company and no guarantee of completeness.
You could then look for surviving service records - a soldiers Regimental Conduct Sheet should list which Company he was serving with.
But the overwhelming majority of other ranks service records from the Great War era went up in flames during WW2 when German bombs hits the London warehouse where they were stored. Some pages of some mens records survived, inevitably fire, smut and water damaged. It's pot luck as to whether any one individuals Regimental Conduct Sheet was amongst what was salvaged.
An attempt was made to recreate some of the records by drawing on copies taken by the Ministry of Pensions to assist with ongoing War Disability Pension Claims and Medical treatment.  However the pages they had copies of almost entirely relate to the medical side and so if a Regiment Conduct Sheet is included then it was by luck rather than judgement.

For fatalities, the Commonwealth War Commission webpage for each individual may sometimes show Company as well as Battalion. Of the 20 fatalities shown for the 2nd Battalion on the 23rd August 1914 just one has a Company listed - 7622 Private John Connolly was serving with B Company. His CWGC webpage shows a Concentration Report - these cover exhumations and move to the current burial site. It looks like he was previously buried by the Germans at Audencourt. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/571601/john-connolly/

Later in the war information supplied by the German military authorities to the International Committee of the Red Cross about prisoners taken quite often includes Company details as well as date of birth, family contact details and when and where captured. But the lists that came through from the Germans well into 1915 were practically useless - there is nothing obvious for John Connolly for example but it wouldn't have surprised me to find him as Private Connolly, Irish or even just Private Connolly. Sometimes more information becomes available later in the war as the soldiers moved camp or through ill-health were either repatriated or allowed to move to Holland or Switzerland to be interned in a neutral country for the duration of the war.

The CWGC database can be used to identify the casualties for a Regiment on a particular day, but to drill down to Battalions I'd used Geoffs' Search Engine. http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

The International Committee of the Red Cross website is here https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 5 January by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Captain Chip said:

Anyways, If anyone here can answer this question, What were the casualties of Company A at the Battle of Mons?

Peter has given excellent advice about the most key aspect of your query.  A minor point in context, but nonetheless important if you’re going to write about any British Army unit, including the Royal Irish, is that the naming convention is ‘A Company’ (and so on), but never Company A as used by US forces.  It would grate with any knowledgeable readers if you used the latter.

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

Thanks. As I have been researching, I just realized more and more how different things are from America. This definitely will be a challenge. The main reason is that I would love to try and figure out just how many men from A Company Survived in each battle. Such as at the Battle of Mons, or in particular, The Battle of Le Pilly. From there I can scramble together something for the aftermath of that battle. 

[Matlock1418]

13 hours ago, Captain Chip said:

2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment

If you have not been there before ... The National Archive is one of the places to potentially go for WD - many are free nowadays, after free registration there [Incl. 2RIR]

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=5&_q="WO+95"+"Royal+Irish+Regiment"+"2+Battalion" [includes 1914-15]

For other WD searches: Note I used "WO 95" "Royal Irish Regiment" "2 Battalion" - for other searches keep all the quotes but you can change the regiment and battalion inside those quotes [for battalion just use the number, not 1st, 2nd, 3rd. 4th etc]

M

[Captain Chip]

Aye. I am on it. Just most of these documents have bad print. I should know from going through the Waterloo medal roll. But thank you. But I still can't find the strength of the companies. It may be lost. But if anyone has any information about the company, it would be most appreciated.

Edited 5 January by Captain Chip

[PRC]

38 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

The main reason is that I would love to try and figure out just how many men from A Company Survived in each battle.

I think you need to be clearer in your own mind what you mean by survived - man who were wounded  \ taken prisoner or didn't even take part in the battle all "survived" - I suspect what you're after is something like how many survived the fighting and remained effective to be able to carry on the fight the next day serving with A Company - a roll call value that simply won't exist. At the Battalion level then when you included transport section, cooks, signallers, regimental police, tradesmen, pioneers and stretcher bearers, some of which nay have nominally been on the strength of "A" Company you may well have a core of men you'd expect to survive all bar the kind of encircling movement more akin to the German spring offensive of 1918.

I know from my own attempts to try to identify who was present and the "true" casualty rates for the 9th Norfolks at The Quadrilateral, (15th September 1916), and the 5th Norfolks at Anafarta, (12th August 1915) and 2nd Gaza, (19th April 1917) - all actions in which said battalion effectively ceased to exist as a fighting unit - that you can just end up going round and round in circles trying to reconcile all the different sources. They just sit on my PC now as unfinished projects.

So I genuinely wish you every success if you attempt to take on such a task.

From the names of the 20 who died, reconciled with the officers named in the Appendix in the August 1914 War Diary it may be worth tracking down casualty list appearances - they won't necessarily appear all on the same casualty list. In the early months of the war it's not uncommon to see the lists not only broken down to Killed \ Wounded \ Missing by Regiment but even down to Battalion. Some of the dead from CWGC will be on those lists as "Wounded" or "Missing". Given the numbers involved at Mons and Le Pilly you are likely to find other 2nd Battalion names listed. Some might have surviving service records. And for the ones taken prisoner, while the ICRC records may be spare, there is always a  small chance that the UK National Archive holds a returned prisoner interview, a significant chunk of which will concentrate on the circumstances in which they were captured. The focus though is on escapees, those repatriated or transferred to internment in neutral countries.https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/prisoner-of-war-interview-reports-1914-1918/

Cheers,
Peter

[Captain Chip]

Ok. With the Royal Irish Regiment, I want to know who in A Company escaped capture from the enemy. That's what I should have said in the first place. I am very sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I just have so many ideas about what my story should be, but I want to be as accurate as I can in the story, unlike some other historical fiction works I have seen.

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/01/2024 at 14:53, Captain Chip said:

Ok. With the Royal Irish Regiment, I want to know who in A Company escaped capture from the enemy. That's what I should have said in the first place. I am very sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I just have so many ideas about what my story should be, but I want to be as accurate as I can in the story, unlike some other historical fiction works I have seen.

How much soldiers (enlisted men) biographical reading have you done?  If you want to be authentic about a regular British infantry battalion then I suggest as an absolute minimum you read ‘There’s a Devil in the Drum’ (John Lucy Royal Irish Rifles) and [edit] ‘Old Soldiers Never Die’ (Frank Richards Royal Welsh Fusiliers).  

Edited 14 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

I have read eyewitness accounts, accounts of how the battle happened, and even interviews with the soldiers captured during the Battle of Le Pilly. None have made mention of how many men of A Company escaped. One soldier states that some stretcher-bearers and 20 men came in the Le Riez saying the Battalion was cut up. Then a handful of others came by. It does not say what company they were from.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Captain Chip said:

I have read eyewitness accounts, accounts of how the battle happened, and even interviews with the soldiers captured during the Battle of Le Pilly. None have made mention of how many men of A Company escaped. One soldier states that some stretcher-bearers and 20 men came in the Le Riez saying the Battalion was cut up. Then a handful of others came by. It does not say what company they were from.

Yes I understand that you’re trying to research a particular company but as Peter (PRC) has explained in some detail you’re unlikely to find the granularity you seek unless you stumble upon a personal account by someone from that sub-unit, a vanishing likelihood after all this time.

The point I was trying to make is purely with a view towards meeting your declared intent of authenticity, which I took to mean the culture of the regiment and company as well as the events that they experienced.  As you pointed out, it was a culture and structure unlike (different) to the US Army.  The books I suggested are therefore with a view to helping you with understanding that cultural difference and thus aiding with the authenticity of your intended writing. 

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

I see what you mean. I think I'll give it a go at it. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Captain Chip said:

I see what you mean. I think I'll give it a go at it. 

It’s usually straightforward to find preowned paperback copies online for little outlay and need not be expensive. 

[Captain Chip]

Ok. Thanks. And also big news. I found a promising report. Pvt. James O'Neill. He makes statements about A Company and may have been with them.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Ok. Thanks. And also big news. I found a promising report. Pvt. James O'Neill. He makes statements about A Company and may have been with them.

Pte** James O’Neill.  I hope that you find what you are looking for.

**in general British military abbreviations follow a fairly consistent convention.  Either, the first letter and the last two letters, or the first two letters and the last letter.  Sometimes the first letter and the last letter.  A quite consistent theme.

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Pte James O’Neill.  I hope that you find what you are looking for.

Ok, so he was with A Company from the looks of things. We along with 20 others were wounded and could not fight back. And only 5 men were able to fight back. This is interesting because the characters in my book, only 5 men of A Section escape. But these men fought to the last. And not many with James survived. But I am still looking. I might be able to find another account. I will get this right if I can. If I can't I'll just have to take some creative liberty. 

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

**in general British military abbreviations follow a fairly consistent convention.  Either, the first letter and the last two letters, or the first two letters and the last letter.  Sometimes the first letter and the last letter.  A quite consistent theme.

However ranks can seem to be particularly challenging and commonly seem to buck that methodology 

Cpl, Sgt/Sjt, Lieut, Capt, Maj, Brig seem to come to mind - Beside Pte(s), I wonder how many of those other ranks ended up in a five man group of survivors ??

However most certainly one for your expertise FS = In the Royal Irish Rifles would it be Sergeant [Sgt] or Serjeant [Sjt] in 1914 ?

M

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

However ranks can seem to be particularly challenging and commonly seem to buck that methodology 

Cpl, Sgt/Sjt, Lieut, Capt, Maj, Brig seem to come to mind - Beside Pte(s), I wonder how many of those other ranks ended up in a five man group of survivors ??

However most certainly one for your expertise FS = In the Royal Irish Rifles would it be Sergeant [Sgt] or Serjeant [Sjt] in 1914 ?

M

Cpl = first and last letter (option 3)

Col = ditto

Lt Col = ditto

Lt = ditto

Sgt = ditto

LCpl = ditto

Bn = ditto

Bde = First letter and last two letters (option 1)

Coy = ditto

As mentioned that’s quite consistent.

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Cpl = first and last letter (option 3)

Col = ditto

Lt Col = ditto

Lt = ditto

Sgt = ditto

WO = ditto

Bn = ditto

Bde = First letter and last two letters (option 1)

Coy = ditto

As mentioned that’s quite consistent.

I understand and recognise many of your examples, you also having edited your earlier post whilst I was composing my post, but I was particularly refering to ranks for the OP

Sorry, how does Cpl and Sgt / Sjt fit into your options? Cl and St would appear to fit your described option of first and last, option 3 [I'm not going higher as would seem unlikely to fit with the OP's intentions]. 

Certainly not Corp.

And what about Sgt or Sjt for RIR 1914 ?? [And hopefully it's not Sarge!]

This is intended as a discussion and aid to the OP.

M

Edited 5 January by Matlock1418
add corp

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I understand and recognise many of your examples, you also having edited your earlier post whilst I was composing my post, but I was particularly refering to ranks for the OP

Sorry, how does Cpl and Sgt / Sjt fit into your options? Cl and St would appear to fit your described option of first and last, option 3 [I'm not going higher as would seem unlikely to fit with the OP's intentions]. 

Certainly not Corp.

And what about Sgt or Sjt for RIR 1914 ?? [And hopefully it's not Sarge!]

This is intended as a discussion and aid to the OP.

M

I think you’ll find the three options fit in the vast majority of cases.  They were intended to aid the OP in understanding the variation from US.

[Matlock1418]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I think you’ll find the three options fit in the vast majority of cases.

It wasn't intended as a contradiction - like you aiming to aid the OP - Same language separated by an ocean [or something like that!]

Still wondering about Sgt and Sjt for the RIR in 1914 ???

M

[Keith_history_buff]

As an accompaniment to your research, there are two eyewitness accounts from 1914 that spring to mind.

The second book is "Old Soldiers Never Die" by Frank Richards, which is an interesting read.

The first book that springs to mind, and I was surprised it has not been mentioned so far, is the following, which I have not read:
https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/theres-a-devil-in-the-drum/

Frogsmile has to be the most technically proficient forum users, when it comes to knowledge of the British Army, so you are in capable hands.