2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

It wasn't intended as a contradiction - like you aiming to aid the OP - Same language separated by an ocean [or something like that!]

Still wondering about Sgt and Sjt for the RIR in 1914 ???

M

Sjt used fairly universally prewar but began to change to Sgt as an ‘modern’ option, which led to Rifle regiments choosing to be conservative and retain Sjt as a point of difference.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sjt used fairly universally prewar but began to change to Sgt as an ‘modern’ option, which led to Rifle regiments choosing to be conservative and retain Sjt as a point of difference.

Thanks for your clarification [as I had suspected] - probably not that obvious trans-Atlantic/in Pennsylvania.

Possibly good to define a "Rifle" regiment too [I have an idea, but....].

M

Edited 5 January by Matlock1418
add

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

As an accompaniment to your research, there are two eyewitness accounts from 1914 that spring to mind.

The second book is "Old Soldiers Never Die" by Frank Richards, which is an interesting read.

The first book that springs to mind, and I was surprised it has not been mentioned so far, is the following, which I have not read:
https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/theres-a-devil-in-the-drum/

Frogsmile has to be the most technically proficient forum users, when it comes to knowledge of the British Army, so you are in capable hands. 

Thank you Keith for pointing out to me in such a courteous manner an inadvertent error I made earlier, I had meant Old Soldiers Never Die, rather than the Old Soldier Sahib that I’d mentioned.  

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

I give up. According to maps, it seems maybe, some of Company A escaped. At the start of this fight, it seems they had 4 officers and 200 men on the 19th. Then it was reinforced by Lt. Bredin's Platoon of reinforcements. I don't know how many casualties they took but I just will take a stab at 20-30 because the Company was mainly in reserve. But anyways the next the company was surrounded. It is still possible that some men of the company were able to escape. Based on how close they were to Le Riez I will guess that the 20 men mentioned to have escaped and said that the Regiment was cut up, were those of Company A. How does this all sound?

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The first book that springs to mind, and I was surprised it has not been mentioned so far, is the following, which I have not read:
https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/theres-a-devil-in-the-drum/

FS beat you earlier with There's a Devil in the Drum

And with Old Soldiers Never Die = A pair of good books.

M

Edited 5 January by Matlock1418
typo

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for your clarification [as I had suspected] - probably not that obvious trans-Atlantic/in Pennsylvania.

Possibly good to define a "Rifle" regiment too [I have an idea, but....].

M

A rifle regiment inherited the backwoods fighting style of American and specifically German colonists and wore green uniforms often with black buttons rather then scarlet and shiny brass.  From the turn of the century they’d adopted drab khaki like the rest of the infantry, but retained their black buttons as a visual distinction.  On ceremonial parades they also differed, along with the regiments designated light infantry, in marching at a faster, 140 paces pm than the 120 paces pm of the remainder of the infantry.

[Captain Chip]

8 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

I give up. According to maps, it seems maybe, some of Company A escaped. At the start of this fight, it seems they had 4 officers and 200 men on the 19th. Then it was reinforced by Lt. Bredin's Platoon of reinforcements. I don't know how many casualties they took but I just will take a stab at 20-30 because the Company was mainly in reserve. But anyways the next the company was surrounded. It is still possible that some men of the company were able to escape. Based on how close they were to Le Riez I will guess that the 20 men mentioned to have escaped and said that the Regiment was cut up, were those of Company A. How does this all sound?

Do you think this works and is close to what might have happened?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

I give up. According to maps, it seems maybe, some of Company A escaped. At the start of this fight, it seems they had 4 officers and 200 men on the 19th. Then it was reinforced by Lt. Bredin's Platoon of reinforcements. I don't know how many casualties they took but I just will take a stab at 20-30 because the Company was mainly in reserve. But anyways the next the company was surrounded. It is still possible that some men of the company were able to escape. Based on how close they were to Le Riez I will guess that the 20 men mentioned to have escaped and said that the Regiment was cut up, were those of Company A. How does this all sound?

A Company!  It sounds fine in principle, but you perhaps need to spend a bit more time researching to explore all avenues In learning more about the battalion concerned and its activities.  You give the impression of being a bit rushed at the moment.

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

I am mainly stressed. I can't find a lot of first-hand accounts. If I could get my hands on those, that would be great!

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

I am mainly stressed. I can't find a lot of first-hand accounts. If I could get my hands on those, that would be great!

You seem to expect to find them at the drop of a hat and very easily and have perhaps underestimated the amount of time that in-depth history takes to be extracted from a diverse, fragmented, and well dispersed range of source material, not all of which is accessible online.  Have you looked at the Brigade and Divisional War Diaries?  The Imperial War Museum? The National Army Museum? various Irish Regimental Websites?

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

A rifle regiment inherited the backwoods fighting style of American and specifically German colonists and wore green uniforms often with black buttons rather then scarlet and shiny brass.  From the turn of the century they’d adopted drab khaki like the rest of the infantry, but retained their black buttons as a visual distinction.  On ceremonial parades they also differed, along with the regiments designated light infantry, in marching at a faster, 140 paces pm than the 120 paces pm of the remainder of the infantry.

Thanks again - I meant to clarify for the OP [to help bridge that trans-Atlantic gap!] ... How was the Royal Irish Regiment so identified a "Rifle" or a standard "Line" / Regiment of the Line ???   [Virtually everyone was carrying rifles, but not necessarily being in a "Rifle" regiment - examples of these being I believe King's Royal Rifle Corps, Rifle Brigade etc.]

[ I am anxious about my use of terms in which you FS are much better qualified]

M

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks again - I meant to clarify for the OP [to help bridge that trans-Atlantic gap!] ... How was the Royal Irish Regiment so identified a "Rifle" or a standard "Line" / Regiment of the Line ???   [Virtually everyone was carrying rifles, but not necessarily being in a "Rifle" regiment - examples of these being I believe King's Royal Rifle Corps, Rifle Brigade etc.]

[ I am anxious about my use of terms in which you FS are much better qualified]

M

Yes everyone had rifles and had done since the mid 1850s, so it was really just an historical honorific to be titled as a rifle regiment, but they (honorific rifle units) would have you appreciate that it did also represent an ethos, a specific way of thinking and fighting. 

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You seem to expect to find them at the drop of a hat and very easily and have perhaps underestimated the amount of time that in-depth history takes to be extracted from a diverse, fragmented, and well dispersed range of source material, not all of which is accessible online.  Have you looked at the Brigade and Divisional War Diaries?  The Imperial War Museum? The National Army Museum? various Irish Regimental Websites?

Wait a minute... THEY HAVE BRIGADE AND DIVISIONAL WAR DIARIES!? 

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Captain Chip said:

Wait a minute... THEY HAVE BRIGADE AND DIVISIONAL WAR DIARIES!? 

Yes of course. This is what I mean about you spending more time researching if you’re going to be able to write something meaningful.  You need to understand the Army a bit better before you write about one of its battalions.

1. https://www.ciroca.org.uk/first-world-war-links/infantry-regiments-1914-18/royal-irish-regiment/

2. https://www.royal-irish.com/stories/our-irish-regiments-in-the-first-world-war

3.https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/regiment.php?pid=17621

4.https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/rir.htm

5.https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/3413

6.https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/57378

7.https://ww1photos.com/firstworldwarsoldiers/index.php/royal-irish-regiment/

8.

 

9.

 

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

On ceremonial parades they also differed, along with the regiments designated light infantry, in marching at a faster, 140 paces pm than the 120 paces pm of the remainder of the infantry.

Again some clarification please - I thought 90 paces pm was standard ???  Or am I wildly out ???

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes everyone had rifles so it was really just an historical honorific to be titled as a rifle regimrnt, but they would have you appreciate that it did also represent an ethos, a specific way of thinking and fighting. 

I understand that and the OP probably needs to better understand things if he is to get his narrative more accurately aligned with ethos and practice

What was the Royal Irish Regiment? A "Rifle " regiment or not?

M

Edited 5 January by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Again some clarification please - I thought 90 paces pm was standard ???  Or am I wildly out ???

I understand that and the OP probably needs to better understand things if he is to get his narrative more accurately aligned with ethos and practice

What was the Royal Irish Regiment? A "Rifle " regiment or not?

M

1.  Yes you’re wildly out.  Standard infantry pace was 30 inches, and speed of marching 120 paces to the minute.

2. The Royal Irish Regiment was not a rifle regiment but it was armed with a rifle like all infantry regiments.  The Royal Irish Rifles was a rifle regiment in addition to being armed with rifles like everyone else. 

 

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re wildly out.  Standard infantry pace was 30 inches, and speed of marching 120 paces to the minute.

Hey, no need to rub it in.  I wonder where I got 90 paces pm from ??  - I was only trying to make sure the OP had his troops marching at an appropriate pace [when on parade!] 120 paces pm x 30 inches = 3600 inches or 300ft or 100 yds per minute - now that does seem right for ideal conditions

You may need to also explain the types of marching [and their commands too] and troop deportment when marching [pace & stride shouldn't have changed but marching 'easy' in the field was very different from marching on a parade groud], so notably for in the field/in theatre] - and when and where.

Like you I suspect the OP really need to better understand the nuances [and probably tactics] of the British Army before he starts writing about it, however fictionally, especially if he wants to enter the British market [that said in the US perhaps not so essential ?? - thinking ... possibly for the non-informed/limited-informed not essential but I really think such a story should be as accurate & informative as is reasonably possible, lest it enters the public mind as has "Blackadder" and Haig's reputation].

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Royal Irish Regiment was not a rifle regiment but it was armed with a rifle like all infantry regiments.  The Royal Irish Rifles was a rifle regiment in addition to being armed with rifles like everyone else. 

As I understood.

But for example the comparison the differentiation between the earlier Rifles/Light infantry [sharpshooting and skirmishing - we don't want "Sharpe" per se] and Line/Heavy infantry [slogging it out] needs to be understood [I use brief types of descriptions of their roles] - though anyway that operational distinction had largely disappeared if I am correct [Don't hesitate to correct me if I am not!]  Of course tactics changed later in the war but the OP needs to understand the 1914 situation.

But no point in polishing black buttons - or shiny buttons that anyway would be let go dull in the field!

@Captain Chip Frogsmile really is a good one for military details.

And there are other members on GWF well versed with info on other aspects of military life, crime & punishment, medical treatments, weapons, rations etc. etc.

If you need material on treatment of disabled men and deceased men's families - that's much more my field [But hey, pensions don't have so much action I'm afraid!]

= No real shortcuts - thorough research is always required for a good believable book. We understand the trans-Atlantic gap and the temporal one too - Wishing you well.

M

Edited 5 January by Matlock1418
add

[Captain Chip]

Thanks.

 

[Captain Chip]

Ok, gentlemen. I think I kinda figured it out. So the battalion on the 19th when they took Le Pilly, they took quite a few casualties. A Coy lost 2nd Lieutenants Howard and Smyth. And the battalion had 150 wounded which were sent back to Le Riez. And a draft of 63 men under 2nd Lieutenants Anderson and Bredin arrived. They were attached to D Coy and went up to the front. The Battalion formed a line and were from right to left Coys D, C, B, A. The next day they were attacked by the Germans and Lt. Tandy in command of the far left platoon sent word that he was being flanked and needed reinforcements. Lt Harrison, Acting Adjutant, sent Lt. Bredin with his draft of 38 men to reinforce the Coy. The Germans were close to them though and they were starting to get slaughtered. The men moved from a right angle to the left. Coy A was then flanked and all hell broke loose. Many of those killed in the company were shot in the head from the rear. They attempted to surrender but the Germans ignored it. So the Company continued to fight. 

In the end, 177 men were killed, 559 men missing, and 306 men were prisoners. Coy A had Captain Smithwick wounded and a POW and Lt Tandy was killed. Only 135 men were left and they were the reserve. But According to reports, men made it back to the British Line that day. One of them being Sergeant Thornton. Then 20 men did come along saying the Battalion was cut up. And later 4 more men came. So a total of 30 men escaped the Carnage of Le Pilly. But I don't know what companies these men were in or their rank other than Sergeant Thornton. So yeah... I still have so many questions.

[PRC]

@Captain Chip

It probably doesn't add anything to what you already know but here's what Arthur Conan-Doyle, (yes that Arthur Conan Doyle) has to say in his usual gung-ho style, extracted from Volume 1 of his The Great War - the British Campaign in France & Flanders.

"On the 19th neither the Third nor the Fifth Divisions made any appreciable progress, but one battalion was heavily engaged and added a fresh record to its ancient roll of valour. This was the 2nd Royal Irish under Major Daniell, who attacked the village of Le Pilly rather forward from the British left in co-operation with the French cavalry. The Irish infantry charged over eight hundred yards of clear ground, carried the village by storm, and entrenched themselves within it. This advance and charge, which was carried out with the precision of an Aldershot field day, although 130 men fell during the movement, is said by experienced spectators to have been a great feat of arms. The 20th saw a strong counter-attack of the Germans, and by the evening their two flanks had lapped round Le Pilly, pushing off on the one side the French cavalry of Conneau, and on the other a too small detachment of the Royal Fusiliers who were flanking the Irishmen. All day the defenders of Le Pilly were subjected to a terrific shell-fire, and all attempts to get messages to them were unavailing. In the evening they were surrounded, and only two or three men of the battalion were ever seen again. The gallant Daniell fell, and it is on record that his last audible words were a command to fix bayonets and fight to the end, the cartridges of the battalion being at that time exhausted. A German officer engaged in this attack and subsequently taken prisoner has deposed that three German battalions attacked the Royal Irish, one in front and one on each flank, after they had been heavily bombarded in enfilade. Several hundred Irish dead and wounded were taken out of the main trench." http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks12/1202551h.html

The 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment was in the 7th Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Division. The Brigade War Diary for October 1914 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052958

Arthur Conan Doyles' piece mentions that small party of Royal Fusiliers were on one flank, with French Cavalrymen on the other. The only Royal Fusiliers unit in the 3rd Division was the 4th Battalion.

The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War by H.C. O'Neill mentions it briefly in passing on pages 52-53 being more concerned with the action of the main body of the Battalion.

"During the morning of the following day the 8th Brigade took over Le Grande Riez, thus enabling the battalion to contract their front. The Fusiliers supported by their fire an attack on Le Pilly made in the afternoon by the 18th Royal Irish*. The latter reached the station with heavy loss, but were counter-attacked after an intense bombardment and suffered more casualties. During the night Lieutenant Moxon's platoon was sent to the support of the Royal Irish in Le Pilly - it was all the help that could be given - and the Northumberland Fusiliers took over the position south of Herlies. The 4th Middlesex also relieved Z** Company in Le Petit Riez. The Royal Fusiliers now held the west side of Herlies from the Le Pilly Road. About 7 a.m. on the 20th a violent bombardment of Herlies with heavy guns began, and the town was speedily reduced to ruins. The only building left intact was the convent behind the church. The German infantry followed this up by repeated attempts to penetrate the village, which now lay at the angle of a narrow salient. About 9 a.m. the Northumberland Fusiliers reported determined attempts to outflank them on the southern boundaries of Heries, and Captain Carey was sent up with a company to attempt to relieve the pressure by initiating an outflanking movement towards Moxon's position. They had to advance over the open, which was now covered by shell fire, and lost heavily. Carey was severely wounded by a shell splinter. Moxon had sustained a serious wound in the head. But a platoon reached his position. "

More troops of the Brigade were thrown in to try and bolster the position, but by morning on the 21st the French had abandoned Fromelles, leaving no option but to retreat from Herlies on the night of the 21st/22nd to a position between Haut Pommereau and Le Plouich. The 22nd saw then ordered to retreat a further four miles, and with the transport already withdrawn the ammunition and rations had to be abandonned. https://archive.org/details/royalfusiliersin00onei

So as not to add further confusion just when you though you might be starting to get your head round it:-
* 18th Royal Irish. It was still common to refer to a Regiment by its old Foot Regiment number from before the adoption of place names.
** When most British Infantry went over to the 4 Company plus Battalion HQ structure they went for "A", "B", "C" and "D". A few however went for "W", "X", "Y" and "Z".

Does the possibility of dismounted French cavalryman also having to fight their way out of Le Pilly and scavenging amongst the abandonned rations and ammunition do anything for your narrative

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

@Captain Chip

It probably doesn't add anything to what you already know but here's what Arthur Conan-Doyle, (yes that Arthur Conan Doyle) has to say in his usual gung-ho style, extracted from Volume 1 of his The Great War - the British Campaign in France & Flanders.

"On the 19th neither the Third nor the Fifth Divisions made any appreciable progress, but one battalion was heavily engaged and added a fresh record to its ancient roll of valour. This was the 2nd Royal Irish under Major Daniell, who attacked the village of Le Pilly rather forward from the British left in co-operation with the French cavalry. The Irish infantry charged over eight hundred yards of clear ground, carried the village by storm, and entrenched themselves within it. This advance and charge, which was carried out with the precision of an Aldershot field day, although 130 men fell during the movement, is said by experienced spectators to have been a great feat of arms. The 20th saw a strong counter-attack of the Germans, and by the evening their two flanks had lapped round Le Pilly, pushing off on the one side the French cavalry of Conneau, and on the other a too small detachment of the Royal Fusiliers who were flanking the Irishmen. All day the defenders of Le Pilly were subjected to a terrific shell-fire, and all attempts to get messages to them were unavailing. In the evening they were surrounded, and only two or three men of the battalion were ever seen again. The gallant Daniell fell, and it is on record that his last audible words were a command to fix bayonets and fight to the end, the cartridges of the battalion being at that time exhausted. A German officer engaged in this attack and subsequently taken prisoner has deposed that three German battalions attacked the Royal Irish, one in front and one on each flank, after they had been heavily bombarded in enfilade. Several hundred Irish dead and wounded were taken out of the main trench." http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks12/1202551h.html

The 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment was in the 7th Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Division. The Brigade War Diary for October 1914 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052958

Arthur Conan Doyles' piece mentions that small party of Royal Fusiliers were on one flank, with French Cavalrymen on the other. The only Royal Fusiliers unit in the 3rd Division was the 4th Battalion.

The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War by H.C. O'Neill mentions it briefly in passing on pages 52-53 being more concerned with the action of the main body of the Battalion.

"During the morning of the following day the 8th Brigade took over Le Grande Riez, thus enabling the battalion to contract their front. The Fusiliers supported by their fire an attack on Le Pilly made in the afternoon by the 18th Royal Irish*. The latter reached the station with heavy loss, but were counter-attacked after an intense bombardment and suffered more casualties. During the night Lieutenant Moxon's platoon was sent to the support of the Royal Irish in Le Pilly - it was all the help that could be given - and the Northumberland Fusiliers took over the position south of Herlies. The 4th Middlesex also relieved Z** Company in Le Petit Riez. The Royal Fusiliers now held the west side of Herlies from the Le Pilly Road. About 7 a.m. on the 20th a violent bombardment of Herlies with heavy guns began, and the town was speedily reduced to ruins. The only building left intact was the convent behind the church. The German infantry followed this up by repeated attempts to penetrate the village, which now lay at the angle of a narrow salient. About 9 a.m. the Northumberland Fusiliers reported determined attempts to outflank them on the southern boundaries of Heries, and Captain Carey was sent up with a company to attempt to relieve the pressure by initiating an outflanking movement towards Moxon's position. They had to advance over the open, which was now covered by shell fire, and lost heavily. Carey was severely wounded by a shell splinter. Moxon had sustained a serious wound in the head. But a platoon reached his position. "

More troops of the Brigade were thrown in to try and bolster the position, but by morning on the 21st the French had abandoned Fromelles, leaving no option but to retreat from Herlies on the night of the 21st/22nd to a position between Haut Pommereau and Le Plouich. The 22nd saw then ordered to retreat a further four miles, and with the transport already withdrawn the ammunition and rations had to be abandonned. https://archive.org/details/royalfusiliersin00onei

So as not to add further confusion just when you though you might be starting to get your head round it:-
* 18th Royal Irish. It was still common to refer to a Regiment by its old Foot Regiment number from before the adoption of place names.
** When most British Infantry went over to the 4 Company plus Battalion HQ structure they went for "A", "B", "C" and "D". A few however went for "W", "X", "Y" and "Z".

Does the possibility of dismounted French cavalryman also having to fight their way out of Le Pilly and scavenging amongst the abandonned rations and ammunition do anything for your narrative

Cheers,
Peter

A superb summary of the action Peter, thank you for collating the accounts and laying them out so evocatively.

[Captain Chip]

Thank you for this info! And I must say you have piqued my interest in there being a possibility of French cavalrymen trying to escape Le Pilly. I knew that the Fusiliers said they tried to reach the Irish, but I didn't think any of them made it there. And I must ask, weren't there more that escaped? According to the 8th Brigades War Diary, 30 men escaped from Le Pilly. Why do some other accounts only say 2,3,4, or even 20 men escaped? And I don't know if anyone could answer this but who were the men that escaped?

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/01/2024 at 00:48, Captain Chip said:

So the ship was very cramped? And what exactly do they mean by "Dug out naval officer"? And I assume they put the Connaught Rangers or maybe even the Irish Regiment in the empty area?

 

“Dugout” in this context was a common euphemism for being taken out of retirement. It was common parlance during WW1.

All troopships were as a matter of principle filled to capacity, so yes conditions would have been relatively cramped.  To get an approximate impression think ‘Steerage class’ for the men.  ‘Second class’ for warrant officers and officers and ‘First class’ for the more senior officers. 

Edited 6 January by FROGSMILE

[Captain Chip]

Alright got it.

[Captain Chip]

Ok, it says in the War Diaries my unit went to Devonport and stayed there from July 29 to August 12th. I must ask were in Devonport would they have stayed? From the look of things, Devonport is mainly a Naval-type base.