C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January Hi all, I am doing some research on this soldier from the 9th Bn London Regt. He is a MID recipient and I have a nice portrait picture, see attached. I’d like to identify the insignia he wears on his sleeve. Those above the overseas service and rank. (Sgt). Any help appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January The man is Cpl( A/Sgt) Fred William Kent 9th Bn London Regiment ( TF). He was MID on the 16th March 1919 and appears in the London Gazette 10 July 1919 Supplement 8754. Regt number 391297 and previously 52079 KRRC. He lived in West Hampstead, married with 2 children at this period. I think its a fantastic picture of this WW1 SNCO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 25 January Admin Share Posted 25 January Welcome to the forum. Calling @FROGSMILE and @CorporalPunishment who should be able to assist.if you can scan the image rather than a phone photo, it will help with clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper D. Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January I would guess that they could be trade badges. But, not they were not normally worn by Sergeants and above. Unfortunately I cannot make out enough of both badges to come to some conclusion, sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January Here is another scanned image Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January 3 hours ago, C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles said: Hi all, I am doing some research on this soldier from the 9th Bn London Regt. He is a MID recipient and I have a nice portrait picture, see attached. I’d like to identify the insignia he wears on his sleeve. Those above the overseas service and rank. (Sgt). Any help appreciated. Thanks. It looks to be a trumpeter's arm badge (crossed trumpets) below what looks like a farrier's badge (horseshoe) but that would be an unlikely combination for a rifleman but not impossible. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January Thanks @CorporalPunishment I did surmise the same and referencing Iain Swinnertons' book. It is unusual given his service is KRRC and London Regt, but I note he has 12 years service, so he may have been another Regt pre WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o j kirby Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January Hello, Could the top badge be a horse shoe for a Farrier qualification? The lower one looks like two crossed items. Are these something that could be considered? Owain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January Hi @o j kirby it does look like a Farrier qual and the two below look or could be crossed trumpets, this is what has been suggested. It also could be a Regimental badge under the Farrier qualification given some unique regiments did wear them above chevrons of rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January (edited) I agree Trumpeter, but in this case I think the badge might be for Shoeing Smith (aka ‘Cold Shoer’), as this was a lesser qualification and unlike farrier included for non mounted arms like the infantry, but used the same badge. Such men were useful in supporting the battalion’s Transport Section, and could as an expedient shoe horses without using a forge. Forum member @Muerrisch might be able to comment. Edited 25 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January 19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: I agree Trumpeter, but in this case I think the badge might be for ‘Cold Shoer’, as this was a lesser qualification for non mounted arms like the infantry, but used the same badge. Such men were useful in supporting the battalion’s Transport Section. Forum member @Muerrisch might be able to comment. Frogsmile, is that not the RA/RE trumpeter's pattern?. The one in the opening post is the other way up as per the Infantry. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January I don't think there are any other candidates: horseshoe and crossed trumpets they are. Now here's a thing: I have noticed previously that several of the London regiments' units were very keen on the horsey transport aspect., and some rather surprisingly horsey badges do appear in group photos. Badges such as those prize badges for drivers. One such group in "Proficiency Badges" book if I remember rightly. The only counter-argument is that he is not dressed / accoutred for mounted duty. I think we are looking at a rare find, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January (edited) 17 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: Frogsmile, is that not the RA/RE trumpeter's pattern?. The one in the opening post is the other way up as per the Infantry. Pete. The RA and RE pattern had a sprig of laurel leaves Pete. The standard pattern was worn differently between cavalry/artillery and rifle units if I recall correctly, but I agree with you that I’ve posted it the wrong way up for infantry. Edited 26 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January 4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The RA and RE pattern had a sprig of oak leaves Pete. The standard pattern was worn differently between cavalry/artillery and rifle units if I recall correctly, but I agree with you that I’ve posted it the wrong way for infantry. Thanks. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January (edited) 16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: I don't think there are any other candidates: horseshoe and crossed trumpets they are. Now here's a thing: I have noticed previously that several of the London regiments' units were very keen on the horsey transport aspect., and some rather surprisingly horsey badges do appear in group photos. Badges such as those prize badges for drivers. One such group in "Proficiency Badges" book if I remember rightly. The only counter-argument is that he is not dressed / accoutred for mounted duty. I think we are looking at a rare find, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck ............... Thank you. I recall the matter of cold shoers being discussed here many years back. They are mentioned in the footnotes of an infantry establishment table somewhere if I recall correctly. Edited 25 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January (edited) Proficiency Badges; 2/6 City of London Rifles transport section October 1916 .............. horseshoe badges, driving prizes etc Page 41. Photo poorly printed but I saw the original and used a loupe. The lance corporal seated on ground fourth from left is a trumpeter, badge on both arms above chevron. Not good enough to publish on this thread. I am sure I have at least one other London interesting infantry horsey photo. Edited 25 January by Muerrisch addendum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January @Muerrisch and @FROGSMILE Really appreciate the time you have taken to reply on here with some terrific insight. There is also what seems to be a Divisional flash on top of left sleeve and I would hazard a guess its the 56th ( London) Division ? Maybe ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January Fantastic pictures with insignia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January (edited) 24 minutes ago, C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles said: @Muerrisch and @FROGSMILE Really appreciate the time you have taken to reply on here with some terrific insight. There is also what seems to be a Divisional flash on top of left sleeve and I would hazard a guess its the 56th ( London) Division ? Maybe ? I think that’s likely yes 23 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: Super photos, especially what looks to me like lads of a Young Soldier battalion in the lower image. Edited 25 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 25 January Author Share Posted 25 January Bingo! The 1921 census has my man employed as a Groom. This adds up then he used his proficiency/trade on exit from the Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladonia Posted 25 January Share Posted 25 January Hello there The patch worn by Cpl( A/Sgt) Fred William Kent would have been a 1"x 3" green vertical rectangle, on both sleeves. Also the 9th Batt was part of 58th not 56th Division. Here is a link to an excellant thread dealing with the insignia of the London Regt. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 26 January Author Share Posted 26 January Thank you @caladonia for the fantastic information and help. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 26 January Share Posted 26 January Hello there, I have the same photo. I did not know his name or anything about him though. Thanks to everyone in this thread for their contributions. By coincidence, I think he appears in another photo I have of the whole QVR transport. It looks to be the same man and the ring is a good match. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Posted 26 January Author Share Posted 26 January (edited) @Drew-1918 interesting coincidence that you have the same photo from the same photographer studio. Would you mind sending me a copy of the photo you have of QVR transport ? It would be very nice to have a copy if I may please? Edited 26 January by C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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