British WW1 Sleeve insignia

[charlie962]

He does appear in the medal roll as T/Sgt (Transport Sergeant).

[Muerrisch]

I too would like to see the Transport group .................. looking for the various prize and appointment and trade badges.

[C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles]

@charlie962 do you have copies of the medal rolls? Or advise how I can access a copy. Thanks very much 

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles said:

@charlie962 do you have copies of the medal rolls? Or advise how I can access a copy. Thanks very much 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5681-00203?treeid=&personid=&queryId=8413c8ef-a1fc-444a-b369-0c17764a0b9d&usePUB=true&_phsrc=tLN815&_phstart=successSource&pId=2841610

Rolls are on Ancestry as above.

pm sent.

Edited 27 January by charlie962

[Drew-1918]

I posted a scan of the Transport in the thread Caladonia linked to, but I will post it here too. It looks like the scan is poor quality but if I remember correctly, the photo is very small. I think this is the best I can get it. 

 

 

Edited 27 January by Drew-1918
For some inexplicable reason, the original scan is uploading completely black. I had to take a screen shot. Apologies.

[C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles]

@Drew-1918 outstanding thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I posted a scan of the Transport in the thread Caladonia linked to, but I will post it here too. It looks like the scan is poor quality but if I remember correctly, the photo is very small. I think this is the best I can get it. 

 

 

That is such a splendid photograph and with the wonderful resolution of glass plate imagery the clarity of the detail is astounding.  On examination one gets a real feel for the spirit and characters of all the men as each individual face is scanned.

One aspect that has deeply surprised me is that whilst every man has a seemingly well fitting jacket provided with the black rifles buttons one would expect with the Queen Victoria’s Rifles, a relatively large contingent of them are wearing the cap badge of the Royal Fusiliers, probably 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th London’s.

On first consideration it suggests a draft of replacements, who haven’t yet received QVR cap badges, but to have black buttons already doesn’t ostensibly make sense.  I wonder if the QVR war diary can throw any light on the matter?  From a uniform perspective it is most odd.

Afternote: the only link I can find in connection with the mixed badges is that 1/4th London’s (RF) were moved to 168th Bde of 56th (London) Division on 9th Feb 1916.  1/9th London’s (QVR) were moved to the same division but 169th Bde on 10th Feb 1916.  The division was forming up in the Hallencourt area at the time.  It suggests that some surplus men of the 1/4th may have been sent to make up the 1/9th Transport to strength, but black buttoned jackets combined with RF badges still remains unexplained.  Presumably they were told to continue wearing their old badges until QVR badges could be provided.  It was in that year that the responsibility for supply was transferred from TF County Associations to the regular army’s Ordnance supply chain.

Edited 27 January by FROGSMILE

[C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles]

Ive just noticed the OC of the Platoon is wearing an MC (?) on his Service Dress. 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles said:

Ive just noticed the OC of the Platoon is wearing an MC (?) on his Service Dress. 

Yes it seems so.  They were quite a liberally awarded decoration to junior officers by the last two years of the war and so are frequently seen ribbons.

[caladonia]

9 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I posted a scan of the Transport in the thread Caladonia linked to, but I will post it here too. It looks like the scan is poor quality but if I remember correctly, the photo is very small. I think this is the best I can get it. 

 

 

Great photo, does anyone recognise the badge worn by the chap, rear row far left, on his right sleeve, he seems to be making a great effort at showing it off !

William

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Great photo, does anyone recognise the badge worn by the chap, rear row far left, on his right sleeve, he seems to be making a great effort at showing it off !

William

Yes it’s a wheelwright’s badge William.  A man who makes the wooden part of a wagon wheel.  They were highly competent carpenters.  The other tradesman who he worked closely with was the carriage-smith.

Edited 27 January by FROGSMILE

[caladonia]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s a wheelwright’s badge William.  A man who makes the wooden part of a wagon wheel.  They were highly competent carpenters.  The other tradesman who he worked closely with was the carriage-smith.

Thanks for the quick reply FROGSMILE, it seems to be the metal version, as it stands proud of the sleeve?

William

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Thanks for the quick reply FROGSMILE, it seems to be the metal version, as it stands proud of the sleeve?

William

Yes, I agree.  Metal badges were popular.  They could be transferred between jackets, were easier to keep clean, more robust, and could even be purchased individually, as they were marketed and sold by badge retailers.

Edited 27 January by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That is such a splendid photograph and with the wonderful resolution of glass plate imagery the clarity of the detail is astounding.  On examination one gets a real feel for the spirit and characters of all the men as each individual face is scanned.

One aspect that has deeply surprised me is that whilst every man has a seemingly well fitting jacket provided with the black rifles buttons one would expect with the Queen Victoria’s Rifles, a relatively large contingent of them are wearing the cap badge of the Royal Fusiliers, probably 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th London’s.

On first consideration it suggests a draft of replacements, who haven’t yet received QVR cap badges, but to have black buttons already doesn’t ostensibly make sense.  I wonder if the QVR war diary can throw any light on the matter?  From a uniform perspective it is most odd.

Afternote: the only link I can find in connection with the mixed badges is that 1/4th London’s (RF) were moved to 168th Bde of 56th (London) Division on 9th Feb 1916.  1/9th London’s (QVR) were moved to the same division but 169th Bde on 10th Feb 1916.  The division was forming up in the Hallencourt area at the time.  It suggests that some surplus men of the 1/4th may have been sent to make up the 1/9th Transport to strength, but black buttoned jackets combined with RF badges still remains unexplained.  Presumably they were told to continue wearing their old badges until QVR badges could be provided.  It was in that year that the responsibility for supply was transferred from TF County Associations to the regular army’s Ordnance supply chain.

I see at least three other cap badges amongst that lot. Front row, second from viewer's right, 12th Londons, third row, fifth from viewer's left, presumably 22nd or 24th Londons and rear row, viewer's far left, at a guess is 10th Londons. Quite a mixed bag there.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I see at least three other cap badges amongst that lot. Front row, second from viewer's right, 12th Londons, third row, fifth from viewer's left, presumably 22nd or 24th Londons and rear row, viewer's far left, at a guess is 10th Londons. Quite a mixed bag there.      Pete.

That’s helpful Pete, the 12th London’s fit, they too joined the forming 56th Div, but to 168th Bde on 12th Feb 1916.  22nd and 24th London’s (Queen’s) doesn’t readily fit though as both, first and second line units were elsewhere, with 47th Div (1st-line), and 60th Div (2nd Line), respectively.  It might suggest that men were sent between infantry base depots and then onward from there to form 56th Div.

I don’t think it can be 10th London’s, as 1/10th were in Middle East (MEF) and 2/10th didn’t arrive in France until Feb 1917, and went to 58th Div.  I can’t see so well on my phone screen, but given the outline shape you see, might he be LRB?

The mixture of badges, overall, does make it look as if odds and sods of 56th (London) Div were utilised to bring QVR Tpt up-to-strength.

Edited 27 January by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s helpful Pete, the 12th London’s fit, they too joined the forming 56th Div, but to 168th Bde on 12th Feb 1916.  22nd and 24th London’s (Queen’s) doesn’t readily fit though as both, first and second line units were elsewhere, with 47th Div (1st-line), and 60th Div (2nd Line), respectively.  It might suggest that men were sent between infantry base depots and then onward from there to form 56th Div.

I don’t think it can be 10th London’s, as 1/10th were in Middle East (MEF) and 2/10th didn’t arrive in France until Feb 1917, and went to 58th Div.  I can’t see so well on my phone screen, but given the outline shape you see, might he be LRB?

The mixture of badges, overall, does make it look as if odds and sods of 56th (London) Div were utilised to bring QVR Tpt up-to-strength.

LRB is a good possibility.        Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

LRB is a good possibility.        Pete.

That’s a perfect match then.  1/5th London’s (LRB) joined 169th Bde, 56th (London) Div on 10th Feb 1916 in Hallencourt.

It’s such a great photo and what links them all strongly in my mind is that they’re all London Territorials and probably all shared a similar accent regardless of their cap badge.  It really is a snapshot in time of London working class men circa 1916.  Did you notice the very young lad, who I think is probably underage (or perhaps stunted), seated crossed legged on the ground slightly left of centre as we look in the front row.

Edited 27 January by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a perfect match then.  1/5th London’s (LRB) joined 169th Bde, 56th (London) Div on 10th Feb 1916 in Hallencourt.

It’s such a great photo and what links them all strongly in my mind is that they’re all London Territorials and probably all shared a similar accent regardless of their cap badge.  It really is a snapshot in time of London working class men circa 1916.  Did you notice the very young lad, who I think is probably underage (or perhaps stunted), seated crossed legged on the ground slightly left of centre as we look in the front row.

I wouldn't say he looked underage really but he certainly looks younger than most of them and looks to be missing a cap badge as well.    Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I wouldn't say he looked underage really but he certainly looks younger than most of them and looks to be missing a cap badge as well.    Pete.

Yes I think he’s probably just quite young by comparison with the others but stunted too.  He’s noticeably thin but determined looking.  This is one of my favourite photographs in a while, it is just so evocative of the London of those times.  Very different to today. 

[Muerrisch]

Several of the men are wounded veterans: in addition to the MC we have a man with three overseas chevrons which dates group well into 1918.

Second from left, one row down from back, also horseshoe badge.

 

Edited 27 January by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Several of the men are wounded veterans: in addition to the MC we have a man with three overseas chevrons which dates group well into 1918.

Second from left, one row down from back, also horseshoe badge.

 

That’s a really good point taking it into 1918, as it makes the mixture of badges with black buttons even more odd.  At first it seemed likely to be when 56th Div was first forming up.  More difficult now to consider that mix of insignia and where they are likely to be in the latter half 1918.  It suggests that the photo is after they moved to 175th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division via absorption by their 2nd line battalion.  Perhaps @Drew-1918 can throw some light on it?

Edited 28 January by FROGSMILE

[C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles]

I am looking at the chap with the QVR Tpt sign and it seem is has an award ribbon. MM? 

Edited 28 January by C Coy 2 Royal Irish Rifles

[Muerrisch]

33 men present. I do not have an early 1918 Establishment for transport, but would be looking for about 28 including the sergeant and officer. 23 accoutred for mounted duty with bandolier. A sprinkling of good conduct chevrons, allowed to TF men by an amendment to Orders in [from memory] 1916.

What a story this group could tell: when, where, why. A slightly surprising absence is a pet dog or other animal.

This is a superb portrait, I am absolutely fascinated by it. The unit War Diary may be revealing, but I have feeling that we are looking at a group neither recently on front line duty, nor warned for it .............. reasonably relaxed but very few innocents among them. A contender for photo of the year.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

33 men present. I do not have an early 1918 Establishment for transport, but would be looking for about 28 including the sergeant and officer. 23 accoutred for mounted duty with bandolier. A sprinkling of good conduct chevrons, allowed to TF men by an amendment to Orders in [from memory] 1916.

What a story this group could tell: when, where, why. A slightly surprising absence is a pet dog or other animal.

This is a superb portrait, I am absolutely fascinated by it. The unit War Diary may be revealing, but I have feeling that we are looking at a group neither recently on front line duty, nor warned for it .............. reasonably relaxed but very few innocents among them. A contender for photo of the year.

It’s the best group photo I have seen in an age.

The black buttons versus cap badge conundrum seems even more odd for a photo dated 1918 as opposed to forming up as a Division in 1916.  It’s also 58th (London) Division as opposed to 56th.  Hopefully the war diary might give information concerning drafts to the battalion around that time.

Edited 28 January by FROGSMILE