Two medal index cards?

[Flash]

Gentlemen, I'm researching William Lancelot Kitchen, known to his family as serving in the artillery and the Coldstream Guards during WW1... but I see what appears to be two medal index cards for him.

Both list RGA as his original role, and the Coldstream Guards on the second card... and both list him as regimental number 8870 in the Coldstream Guards, which leads me to think he has two medal index cards.

What confuses me at this point is one card doesn't credit him with a 14 or 14-15 Star at all... while the other says it's a 14 Star with Clasp & Roses. One card seems to mention a gunshot would to the neck (if I'm reading correctly), but no mention on the other. Yet both cards list him as 8870 in the Coldstream Guards, so I'm confident this is the same bloke being referred to on both cards.

Can anyone shed any light on what might be going on here? Cheers.

WO-372-11-190801.pdf

[keithmroberts]

Welcome to the forum.  it isn't unusual for the star to be recorded on a second index card, just as the 14 and 14/15 medal rolls are always separate from the roll for the Victory and General Service medals. I'm not sure why it happens, presumably different offices processing records, but it is far from unusual.

 

Keith

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Can anyone shed any light on what might be going on here?

The medal index cards are just that an index to the Medal Rolls raised for administrative purposes by the issuing authorities.  The Rolls are the document of record, depending who was compiling the index different information may have been added or a duplicate card issued.

In this case it is quite straightforward and one of the most common causes of duplication, in that the card that details the gunshot wound refers to the issue of the Silver War Badge and references the  page list on the Silver War Badge Records i.e. CG/313  here on Ancestry if you subscribe

The card above it refers to the Medal Rolls and indicates this soldier's medal entitlement.

If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always recommend studying the Long Long Trail (link top left)

This is the page on interpreting the different format of cards that can be found, including the two variants you have downloaded from TNA

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

[Michelle Young]

Not sure why you say RGA, the two MIC for this number 8870 list Coldstream Guards and RASC. The National Archives scan 6 cards and place them on one page. Not necessarily all the same person. Images  ©️ Ancestry. Are you sure you even have the correct William Kitchen, do the family have medals etc? 

Michelle (not a gentleman) 

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Flash said:

I'm researching William Lancelot Kitchen, known to his family as serving in the artillery and the Coldstream Guards during WW1... but I see what appears to be two medal index cards for him.

Both list RGA as his original role, and the Coldstream Guards on the second card... and both list him as regimental number 8870 in the Coldstream Guards, which leads me to think he has two medal index cards.

35 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Not sure why you say RGA, the two MIC for this number 8870 list Coldstream Guards and RASC.

35 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Are you sure you even have the correct William Kitchen,

I have to agree for 8870 Coldstream Guards there seems to be one card for medals and another for a SWB as Coldstream Guards, no artillery in sight

An unspecified disability pension index card at WFA/Fold3 have his address on discharge 16.3.19 from Coldstream Guards as 2 Park Cottages, Spittal, Windsor, Berkshire.  The claim became DEAD on/before 11/5/27

Can it be determined if you/we have the correct man?

M

Edited 10 May by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

From FreeBMD birth I'm seeing

Births Sep 1900   (>99%)
Kitchen	William Lancelot		Whitehaven	10b	694

Might have been a bit young to actively serve during the war [or least legitimately >19y outside the UK during the war = no medal entitlement] ???

M

Edited 10 May by Matlock1418
add

[Matlock1418]

53 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I would note this man enlisted 28.9.10 so cannot have been the WLK born 1900 

I think the genealogy of the man in the OP needs better clarifying

M

Edited 10 May by Matlock1418
typo

[PRC]

As he first went overseas with the Coldstream Guards and was discharged from the Coldstream Guards in March 1919, it may be that he subsequently enlisted again with the RASC and that the only reason there is a reference to that Corps is that he was serving with them - and thus they held his service records - at the time that the issuing of service medals was being dealt with.

If he had only served with the Coldstream Guards then his service records would have survived. Not sure which genealogy site has them or if they went to straight to the National Archive \ National Army Museum.

However if he subsequently enlisted in the RASC his paperwork would have been transferred to their records office. If he was still serving by 1921 then likely his service records would have been retained by the Ministry of Defence. The MoD are currently part way through an exercise to transfer records to the National Archive for all other ranks that left the armed forces by 1963 - so if his records were retained they could be on their way or already there. Ancestry have the contract to digitise them but as yet no information about how they will generally available. Currently the process is a Freedom of Informtion request, for which there is a charge.

A few years back the MoD did release a list of those records they still held for men born before the end of 1900. Those lists are now known to be incomplete but there are potentially a couple of matches for a W. Kitchen. Do you have a date of birth for him?

That date of enlistment on the Silver War Badge Card, (28th September 1910) means he should turn up on one of the 1911 Censuses. And indeed there is an 18 year old Private William Kitchen, born Chatham, Kent, who was recorded in barracks at the Marlborough Lines, Aldershot with the 2nd Battalion.

FindMyPast have a couple of additional references for 8870 Coldstream Guards relating to Coldstream Guards specific records - I suspect one dating from 1910 may be an enlistment book and the other shown as relating to the period 1919-1926 probably covers his discharge. In both there is no reference to a middle name, so likely it was never known to the armed forces. And for the 1910 source the surname has been transcribed as "Kitching" - could simply be a transcription error as we can see on the 1911 Census his surname is recorded correctly.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 10 May by PRC
Typos

[BillyH]

13 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I think the genealogy of the man in the OP needs better clarifying

There is only one birth of a William Lancelot Kitchen between 1870 and 1900 (in 1900) and so he could not have qualified for a 1914/15 Star.

BillyH.

Edited 10 May by BillyH

[PRC]

BTW there are service records for a W L Kitchen, 2648766, Royal Artillery, born 23rd July 1900, on the original MoD list.  He would have been too young to have served overseas before the end of the conflict, so no MIC. Would need more delving, but definately not the Coldstream Guards man. Does potentially tie in with the July to September 1900, (Q3), birth registration.

Definately looks like the OP needs to get William Lancelot Kitchen firmly bedded down date wise - especially birth. May be a co-incidence with the army records, but the death of a William Lancelot Kitchen, born 23rd July 1900, was recorded in the Durham District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1981.

Cheers,
Peter

[TEW]

The Times 20/10/1916 have a Casualty List entry for W Kitchen 8870 CG. No further details.

TEW

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

From FreeBMD birth I'm seeing

Births Sep 1900   (>99%)
Kitchen	William Lancelot		Whitehaven	10b	694

Might have been a bit young to actively serve during the war [or least legitimately >19y outside the UK during the war = no medal entitlement] ???

M

He enlisted into the Royal Navy on the 23rd July 1918 -- please note the entry in the remarks column about the Coldstream Guards

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

Edited 10 May by Allan1892

[Allan1892]

5 hours ago, Flash said:

William Lancelot Kitchen, known to his family as serving in the artillery

Could this be him in WW2 (image courtesy of Ancestry)

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

there are service records for a W L Kitchen, 2648766, Royal Artillery, born 23rd July 1900, on the original MoD list.  He would have been too young to have served overseas before the end of the conflict, so no MIC. Would need more delving, but definately not the Coldstream Guards man. Does potentially tie in with the July to September 1900, (Q3), birth registration.

16 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

He enlisted into the Royal Navy on the 23rd July 1918 -- please note the entry in the remarks column about the Coldstream Guards

14 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Could this be him in WW2 

Nice work gents - looks like it could potentially hang together for a 1900 birth for WLK from Whitehaven [and thus to scrap 8870]

• WW1 Royal Navy, J76199
• 1920 [ish?] Coldstream Guards
• WW2 Royal Artillery, 2648766

We just need the OP to confirm we have the right man.

M

[Allan1892]

The 1921 Census shows that he was stationed at Wellington Barracks, London, 3rd Battalion, Coldstream Guard (image of transcript courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

Actual entry in 1921 Census (courtesy of Find My Past) shows that he was a Lance Corporal

[Matlock1418]

For post-war Coldstream Guards service etc:

Get a copy of military records of service - Apply for the records of a deceased serviceperson

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

And for more WW2 discussion perhaps try: WW2Talk http://ww2talk.com/index.php

M

[Flash]

Ladies (thank you for the reminder, Michelle), and Gentlemen. This is all really good stuff; I am still processing it now as I liaise with the family.

One obvious error to me is I believed the cards were scanned on a '3x2' basis, so that the card on the left and right were related, rather than scanned as six separate cards, so that is my error. Also compounded by the family knowledge that he had an artillery role, so I took the RGA on the left-hand side cards to be related.

I have now received a photo of his medals, attached, which we might be able to make sense of, knowing more of the story here.

Working through the posts in no order...

- It would seem William joined the Royal Navy (Allan1892, thank you), 23rd July 1918.

- Leaves the Navy for the Coldstream Guards (Allan1892, again thank you), but I can't make out the date on the small size scan. Possibly 6/5/20?

- Armistice Day, 1920, he is a pallbearer for the Unknown Warrior (this is family knowledge, image attached), while in the Coldstream Guards.

- Then the artillery part of the story (the family has an image of him in an artillery uniform), is WW2 related (thank you Matlock1418).

- The Gazettal Allan1892 has found would likely be him.

So I'm afraid I led myself, and then subsequently some of you up the garden path in the believe he was 8870 in the Coldstream Guards; that must have been a different William Kitchen. Apologies kenf48, Michelle Young, and PRC for having you chase the wrong chap.

Looking at his medals now, clearly he wasn't around for the Star (thanks BillyH for confirming), he has the War Medal, and potentially if he wasn't in any combat theatre in his Navy or Coldstream Guards service (again, I can't make out the date he moved across, so potentially it was after the war anyway if that 6/5/20 date is right?), the group missing the Victory Medal makes sense.

Moving onto WW2, if the service was all on the home front, those two medals might be the full entitlement, too?

 

Edited 10 May by Flash

[PRC]

48 minutes ago, Flash said:

but I can't make out the date on the small size scan.

"Statement re enlistment to Coldstream Guards" on the Navy records has a date of the 6th May 1920 (6/5/20) associated with it. Whether that's the date of joining or the date of the statement is unclear but either would place him in the Coldstreams by Armistice day 1920. I assume S.C. 35659 is far more likely to be an admin reference number rather than his new service number.

Those Coldstream Guards regimental records on FindMyPast might reveal more, but unfortunately I don't subscribe so can't check if they cover a 1920 enlistment. If they do might well reference the date of transfer to the Royal Artillery as well - unless of course that was a later period of service - WW2?

It also looks like his service record survives. The interim process for applying for a copy is set out here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

I'd always recommend not siloing military and civil records - as you can see from the censuses for the pre-war Coldstream William Kitchen, (FWIW looks to have been a William Ernest Kitchen) and the post war William Lancelot Kitchen they are an accurate reflection of their military status. The latter was taken in June 1921.

As for William Lancelot Kitchen, if you decide not to apply for his service records, or even just while waiting I presume he may potentially have married and potentially there may have been children. Groom's occupation and address before marriage on the marriage certificate will potentially give you another snapshot of where he was in his military career. Similarly children's full birth certificates will give you fathers' occupation and most likely where they were living - either because that was where the child was born or the address of the informant. The General Registrars Office have now got a £2.50 option that is close to instantaneous for getting a copy of the birth certificate. You do need to register if you've not used the service before, (no financial details required), and the simplest way to go about it is to "Use the GRO indexes" option to find the birth you're interested in. Selecting that result will then bring up the range of purchase options available. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 10 May by PRC
Typos

[Flash]

That's all great advice, Peter. Thank you. I'm amazed by what we've uncovered here, and the extra steps I can guide the family to as they unravel more about him.

[Allan1892]

William Lancelot Kitchen enlisted at Sunderland into the Coldstream Guards on the 2nd December 1919 and given the service number of 29564. He gives his age as 19 years 176 days, occupation as a miner and residing in Seaham Harbour, County Durham.

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

The discharge register for the Coldstream Guards shows that he was discharged on the 1st December 1931 having completed 12 years of service. Note that at some stage (1920/21 ??) he was re-numbered to 2648766

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Flash]

7 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

William Lancelot Kitchen enlisted at Sunderland into the Coldstream Guards on the 2nd December 1919 and given the service number of 29564. He gives his age as 19 years 176 days, occupation as a miner and residing in Seaham Harbour, County Durham.

(image courtesy of Find My Past)

So it looks like he joined the Navy from being a Timberman in the mines, to serve during the last half of 1918, then presumably went back to mining (because the war ended, maybe?), before signing up to the Coldstream Guards in 1919... which was then added as a note to his Navy record, but with a May 1920 date...?

Edited 10 May by Flash

[Allan1892]

7 minutes ago, Flash said:

then presumably went back to mining (because the war ended, maybe?), before signing up to the Coldstream Guards in 1919

His details of his attestation into the Coldstream Guards shows that when he attested on the 2nd December 1919, his civilian occupation was that of a Miner. (please see my earlier post) 

When the 1921 Census was taken, 19th June 1921, William was in barracks with the Coldstream Guards. His wife Rose A Kitchen, was with her mother, Mary Jennings, living at 9 South Railway Street, Seaham Harbour, County Durham. With Rose was young Bernard aged 1 year and 5 months (his birth was registered in Quarter 1 of 1920). Note -- Bernard is recorded as Bernard Rooney -- this suggests that Bernard was born before Rose and William married in Quarter 2 of 1920.

[Allan1892]

26 minutes ago, Flash said:

which was then added as a note to his Navy record, but with a May 1920 date

I can't find any reason for the 6th May 1920 date being shown on his Navy record as he clearly attested to the Guards on the 2nd December 1919.