Looking for help with George ROSE, Gunner, Royal Garrison Artillery

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Bev,

Welcome to GWF - you have clearly done a lot of research and given us much to work with. 

At the moment out of my field of knowledge I'm afraid

And you have received a lot to digest - so that will take time.

Meanwhicle you have offered us even more to consider.

Prividing lots of pieces of a jiigsaw can really help - or indicate you have two cases to expore 

Think this is one for our uniform expert members, perhaps @FROGSMILE ?? - this mention should bring this photo to their notice.

To my non-expert eye it looks pre-war and a Canterbury photographer rather suits a Kent connection.

Wishing you the best of fortune.

M

He’s a soldier of the Buffs (East Kent Regiment) in a typical scarlet undress uniform straddling the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902, Matlock.

The upper garment he wears is a 7-button home service frock (loose fitting jacket designed for layering in winter - there was also a 5-button version that was, other than the buttons, similar).

His headdress is the folding field service cap of so called Austrian design that could be unbuttoned and folded down to create a rudimentary balaclava warming the ears.  Introduced in the mid 1890s it was replaced after the war by the much disliked ‘Brodrick cap’ (rather unfairly named after the Secretary of State for War at the time of its introduction).

After the war the regiment also returned to its famous buff facings (collar and cuffs), ending a little over two decades of being obliged to wear white along with all other English and Welsh regiments without a ‘Royal’ appellation.

 

Edited 18 May by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a soldier of the Buffs (East Kent Regiment) in a typical scarlet undress uniform straddling the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902, Matlock.

Many thanks FS

M

[BevHerbert]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a soldier of the Buffs (East Kent Regiment) in a typical uniform straddling the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902, Matlock.

Yes, thank you very much for this.

[mancpal]

Bev,

after another look at the photograph it has made me wonder about the cap worn by the elderly seated gentleman (potentially grooms father?). It has a nautical look about it though obviously not Royal Navy. I wonder if he worked at sea? This of course can go to the bottom of your list of ‘things to investigate’ as I’m sure you have plenty already to consider .

Simon

[BevHerbert]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a soldier of the Buffs (East Kent Regiment) in a typical scarlet undress uniform straddling the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902, Matlock.  The upper garment he wears is a 7-button home service frock (loose fitting jacket designed for layering in winter - there was also a 5-button version that was other than the buttons similar).  His headdress is the folding field service cap of so called Austrian design that could be unbuttoned and folded down to create a rudimentary balaclava warming the ears.  Introduced in the mid 1890s it was replaced after the war by the much disliked ‘Brodrick cap’ (rather unfairly named after the Secretary of State for War at the time of its introduction).  After the war the regiment also returned to its famous buff facings (collar and cuffs), ending a little over two decades of being obliged to wear white along with all other English and Welsh regiments without a ‘Royal’ appellation.

It is fascinating to imagine the black and white photograph I posted in scarlet! He must have looked very smart. Please forgive my absolute ignorance but would "home service" frock actually refer to the fact that he was serving "at home" rather than abroad? I did a very rudimentary search on Ancestry under Boer War records and found no-one resembling my George ROSE. Would there be any way of obtaining any records for such a man as this? It is the right sort of time period for my George (given the possible age of the man in the photo), and in terms of family photographs, I can't think what other contemporary "George" there might be here (I will be double checking this, of course). 

This is possibly a more general forum wide question but would it be possible/likely/impossible etc that someone in The Buffs around 1900 would end up in the RGA during WWI? Or would it be more likely that this man's service would have continued with the same Regiment all the way through? Would this fit with the term "reservist" given on the census in 1911? Perhaps the answer to this is already here somewhere, I am working my way through the replies and processing all the new information.

Thank you for the fascinating Uniform details.

[BevHerbert]

12 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Bev,

after another look at the photograph it has made me wonder about the cap worn by the elderly seated gentleman (potentially grooms father?). It has a nautical look about it though obviously not Royal Navy. I wonder if he worked at sea? This of course can go to the bottom of your list of ‘things to investigate’ as I’m sure you have plenty already to consider .

Simon

Hi Simon, 

The man in question is (I believe) the Father of the Bride, Gilham THOMSETT [The Father of the Groom, the elusive Mr Thomas ROSE is not in the photo, despite being alive and well!). Gilham THOMSETT is described in the Census records variously as "labourer", "gas stoker" and night watchman at the Gas Works. I have always thought he had a nautical sort-of "swarthy sea-dog" (!) look about him though  Living in Deal, he may have been a bit of a fisherman or boatman in some capacity?!

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, BevHerbert said:

would "home service" frock actually refer to the fact that he was serving "at home" rather than abroad?

Yes that’s correct Bev.

In general each soldier of those times signed for an engagement of 12-years divided in two.  If I recall correctly the pre war divide was 3-years with the colours (serving full time) and 9-years with the reserve (returned to civilian life but with an obligation for emergency call-out).  So yes it’s possible that he was a reservist at the beginning of WW1**.

However, it’s possible that he had joined the army auxiliaries of the Territorial Force (TF).  Most coastal ports facing France had fortified defences and coastal artillery manned by TF companies of the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA).  It seems to me likely, or at least a possibility, that he was with the RGA TF in 1914.  If embodied with them at the outset of war that would have overridden his regular reserve liability.

** at some point after the Boer War, I think that the service contract was changed to 7-years with the colours and 5-years with the reserve (a very different prospect to 3 and 9).

Edited 18 May by FROGSMILE

[BevHerbert]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s correct Bev.

In general each soldier of those times signed for an engagement of 12-years divided in two.  If I recall correctly the pre war divide was 3-years with the colours (serving full time) and 9-years with the reserve (returned to civilian life but with an obligation for emergency call-out).  So yes it’s possible that he was a reservist at the beginning of WW1.  However, it’s possible that he had joined the army auxiliaries of the Territorial Force (TF).  Most coastal ports facing France had defences and costal artillery manned by TF companies of the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA).  It seems to me likely or at least a possibility that he was with the RGA TF in 1914.  If embodied with them that would have overridden his reserve liability.

Thank you - that's great. It seems like one question leads to so many new ones but I like a challenge!

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

However, it’s possible that he had joined the army auxiliaries of the Territorial Force (TF).  Most coastal ports facing France had fortified defences and coastal artillery manned by TF companies of the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA).  It seems to me likely, or at least a possibility, that he was with the RGA TF in 1914.  If embodied with them at the outset of war that would have overridden his regular reserve liability.

** at some point after the Boer War, I think that the service contract was changed to 7-years with the colours and 5-years with the reserve (a very different prospect to 3 and 9).

Up to early 1902 I believe the norm was 7 and 5 for non Guards regiments and corps, switching to 3 and 9 for roughly three years as part of a failed attempt to expand the potential recruiting pool, trying 9 and 3 and then rapidly reverting to 7 and 5 till the outbreak of war when other options were required. A regular army reservist could not join the Territorial Force - it was expressly forbidden.

On completion of the 12 year terms there was a one off option for those with a reasonable conduct history to opt for a further four years in the Reserves - the Section D reserve.

When mobilised they would have retained their original service number - as seems to be the likely case for George Rose based on what @RussT has uncovered so far.

But for most of those who signed up for a short service 12 years prior to August 1902 then they would be at best reservists on the 2nd April 1911 when the census was taken, and other than the Section D men, time expired by the time Britain joined the Great War - assuming they hadn't already been discharged \ released from their enlistment earlier.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

Up to early 1902 I believe the norm was 7 and 5 for non Guards regiments and corps, switching to 3 and 9 for roughly three years as part of a failed attempt to expand the potential recruiting pool, trying 9 and 3 and then rapidly reverting to 7 and 5 till the outbreak of war when other options were required.

Thank you for the clarification Peter, I’ve never attempted to memorise the various points of amendment given the number of times it changed during a short span of time.   Like the Guards the cavalry and artillery had different periods for a while if I remember rightly.  The ASC too I think.  It was all rather complicated for a while.  Hopefully you have by this detail given Bev some specifics to work with.

Edited 18 May by FROGSMILE

[BevHerbert]

Thank you @PRC & @FROGSMILE for your posts. I definitely have to do some more learning and "translation" and see what I can come up with

[PRC]

5 hours ago, BevHerbert said:

I thought of this photo that I have had for a long time now but without being sure of who it is. It says "For Mother with love from George". The person in it is so much younger than any of the other photographs that I have of George ROSE that I cannot discern any particular likeness (he does have the rather stern look!) but could this be him?

Probably one to park for now as it's potentially a red herring, but the 1901 Census of England & Wales has a 24 year old Private George Rose, born Worthing Sussex, who was recorded in barracks at Canterbury with The Buffs. FindMyPast has three possible sets of what they have indexed as Service Records for a George Rose, born Worthing, Sussex. Two have the additional information that he was born c1877 and the records start 1901. Sorry but I don't subscribe to FindMyPast, Ancestry or Fold3, so can't check them out further.

Familysearch don't have the records on line, (although Kent FHS should have access), but they show there are records in the burnt series (WO363) for the George Rose born Worthing c1877. Burnt series records are the scraps of paper rescued from the warehouse after the fires died down as a result of the bombing of the London Warehouse where service records were stored in WW2.

One entry shows that George Rose as also resident Worthing, and with service number 6521 in The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBR-X6GM Paul Nixon's Army Service number website shows that the Regular Army Battalions of the The Buffs would have issued that service number between the 27th September 1900 (6407) and the 13th May 1901, (6624) https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/11/buffs-east-kent-regt-1st-2nd-battalions.html

The second entry shows him 35082 Northamptonshire Regiment. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBP-3TZJ

There is a MiC for that George Rose with the Northamptonshire Regiment, subsequently 85583 Labour Corps. There is no MiC for the East Kent Regiment number.

Judging on past performance the third FMP set with no additional information indexed is either an ophaned page, or more likely has his name on something found in another mans records, (for example, Casualty Lists and Part 2 Daily Orders were frequently recycled as scrap paper once all the individual records had been updated. So an internal memo \ calculation in an unrelated soldiers file might have been written on just such a recycled piece of scrap paper).

There is probably more information that could be teased out, but as there doesn't appear to be a likely straight match on earlier censuses , (I suspect he lied about his age, but not by enough to be "your George"!), then possibly worth checking out next of kin details stated in those service records to see if he is part of the extended family - a cousin or uncle perhaps.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 18 May by PRC
Typos

[BevHerbert]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Probably one to park for now as it's potentially a red herring, but the 1901 Census of England & Wales has a 24 year old Private George Rose, born Worthing Sussex, who was recorded in barracks at Canterbury with The Buffs. FindMyPast has three possible sets of what they have indexed as Service Records for a George Rose, born Worthing, Sussex. Two have the additional information that he was born c1877 and the records start 1901. Sorry but I don't subscribe to FindMyPast, Ancestry or Fold3, so can't check them out further.

Familysearch don't have the records on line, (although Kent FHS should have access), but they show there are records in the burnt series (WO363) for the George Rose born Worthing c1877. Burnt series records are the scraps of paper rescued from the warehouse after the fires died down as a result of the bombing of the London Warehouse where there were stored in WW2.

One entry shows that George Rose as also resident Worthing, and with service number 6521 in The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBR-X6GM Paul Nixon's Army Service number website shows that the Regular Army Battalion of the The Buffs would have issued that service number between the 27th September 1900 (6407) and the 13th May 1901, (6624) https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/11/buffs-east-kent-regt-1st-2nd-battalions.html

The second entry shows him 35082 Northamptonshire Regiment. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBP-3TZJ

There is a MiC for that George Rose with the Northamptonshire Regiment, subsequently 85583 Labour Corps. There is no MiC for the East Kent Regiment number.

Judging on past performance the third FMP set with no additional information indexed is either an ophaned page, or more likely has his name on something found in another mans records, (for example, Casualty Lists and Part 2 Daily Orders were frequently recycled as scrap paper once all the individual records had been updated. So an internal memo \ calculation in an unrelated soldiers file might have been written on just such a recycled piece of scrap paper).

There is probably more information that could be teased out, but as there doesn't appear to be a likely straight match on earlier censuses , (I suspect he lied about his age, but not by enough to be "your George"!), then possibly worth checking out next of kin details stated in those service records to see if he is part of the extended family - a cousin or uncle perhaps.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you, Peter. I do have a subscription to Find My Past so I should be able to track these documents down at some point. 

I know very little about any extended ROSE family as George's father Thomas ROSE was (I suspect) possibly illegitimate and may not, in fact, be a ROSE at all. He had a couple of half sisters that I know about, both of whom MAY have survived to adulthood but I cannot trace them as yet and they changed names and moved around quite frequently! One day I WILL discover them

[mancpal]

Bev,

”one day I WILL discover them”. After this thread alone I have no doubt you will. 
An interesting thread made better by your obvious enthusiasm and ability. It isn’t that uncommon for some members to sit back , allow others to do all the work to solve their puzzle yet never contribute anything to assist any other member.

Simon

 

 

[BevHerbert]

1 minute ago, mancpal said:

Bev,

”one day I WILL discover them”. After this thread alone I have no doubt you will. 
An interesting thread made better by your obvious enthusiasm and ability. It isn’t that uncommon for some members to sit back , allow others to do all the work to solve their puzzle yet never contribute anything to assist any other member.

Simon

 

 

Thank you Simon, that is VERY kind of you. Though, I have been working on the origins of Thomas ROSE for far too many years now already 

I am currently going through the pages of the Deal, Walmer & Sandwich Mercury looking at the Roll of Honour each week. There is a G.T. ROSE Clr Sgt RMLI RFR in the early War days of 1914 and a D ROSE, acting ASM Sea Scouts (at Deal Coastguard Station) but no other ROSEs as yet. I need to work out what all the letters mean before I can even think about whether these might be my people. Oh dear. Thank you for your help.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, BevHerbert said:

Thank you Simon, that is VERY kind of you. Though, I have been working on the origins of Thomas ROSE for far too many years now already 

I am currently going through the pages of the Deal, Walmer & Sandwich Mercury looking at the Roll of Honour each week. There is a G.T. ROSE Clr Sgt RMLI RFR in the early War days of 1914 and a D ROSE, acting ASM Sea Scouts (at Deal Coastguard Station) but no other ROSEs as yet. I need to work out what all the letters mean before I can even think about whether these might be my people. Oh dear. Thank you for your help.

RFR = Royal Fleet Reserve I believe.

ASM = in that context Assistant Scout Master.

[BevHerbert]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

RFR = Royal Fleet Reserve I believe.

ASM = in that context Assistant Scout Master.

Thank you I think I would have been googling for a while on the ASM!