Henry Holland RE, Army of the Rhine.

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Hi there. I have just found this thread I wonder if you can still respond to my question regarding the young men sent to France during 1919. My Grandfather, Henry Holland was posted to Dunkirk as a pioneer from the Royal Engineers, Eastern Division, Signals. to the Army of the Rhine. (After the war he went on to be a civil engineer in the tunneling industry (as did my dad) I am presuming that Grandad worked as a tunneler or on the railways in construction as a pioneer from march 1919 onwards on the Rhine. Does anyone know of records that may give me more info. I have my Grandads war record, that is all. many thanks in advance.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum @Bea E Holland StanyerI have split this into a new separate thread. 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Bea E Holland Stanyer said:

Hi there. I have just found this thread I wonder if you can still respond to my question regarding the young men sent to France during 1919. My Grandfather, Henry Holland was posted to Dunkirk as a pioneer from the Royal Engineers, Eastern Division, Signals. to the Army of the Rhine. (After the war he went on to be a civil engineer in the tunneling industry (as did my dad) I am presuming that Grandad worked as a tunneler or on the railways in construction as a pioneer from march 1919 onwards on the Rhine. Does anyone know of records that may give me more info. I have my Grandads war record, that is all. many thanks in advance.

I can’t help with Henry Holland’s activities Bea, but if you’ve not seen it already the site at the following link is quite informative in general regarding RE activity as part of the Rhine occupation in the years from 1919 until its withdrawal: http://www.shiny7.uk/1920-1938.html

Edited 6 June by FROGSMILE

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Thank you for getting back so quickly Frogsmile. The link is amazing and has given me some insight on the theater my Grandad was in post war. The photos are fantastic.

Bea

 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Bea E Holland Stanyer said:

Thank you for getting back so quickly Frogsmile. The link is amazing and has given me some insight on the theater my Grandad was in post war. The photos are fantastic.

Bea

 

I’m glad to help a little Bea, I agree that it’s an excellent website with lots to learn there.

[DavidOwen]

Welcome Bea

Do you have your Henry's DOB and any details of where he may have lived?

I am asking because any information you can give including marriage / children etc. can help the member's to potentially track down any likely military records.

Good luck with your research.

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Hi David,

Yes, Grandad Henry Holland was born in 1900 in Saltash, Cornwall on 29th April to Robert Holland (Romany Gypsy) and Lottie Haytor Ashby.

They travelled around the West Country in a wagon and lived in Fraddon, Par and also on a site called Buckler's Yard in St. Austell

Some of the Hollands are buried in the cemetery at Bugle

The family later moved to West Ham, when Robbie and Lottie were posted as Salvation Army Officers.

Henry had three sons Frederick (died in WW2), Robert, Henry jnr (my dad) and a daughter Lily

 

Many thanks

Bea

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Henry Holland   66647  was in 3rd Btn Suffolk Rgt Feb 1919,

53rd Btn Bedfordshire ,went to Dunkirk from Dover 5th March 1919

Posted to Eastern Division Signals on 25th May 1919 Army of the Rhine no. 2674 Rgt no. 618340 -  Pioneer 27th May 1919 This bit really interests me

demob'd Ripon 11th Oct 1919

Id love to find out where he served and confirm his activities

 

Many thanks

Bea

[DavidOwen]

48 minutes ago, Bea E Holland Stanyer said:

Henry Holland   66647  was in 3rd Btn Suffolk Rgt Feb 1919,

53rd Btn Bedfordshire ,went to Dunkirk from Dover 5th March 1919

Posted to Eastern Division Signals on 25th May 1919 Army of the Rhine no. 2674 Rgt no. 618340 -  Pioneer 27th May 1919 This bit really interests me

demob'd Ripon 11th Oct 1919

Id love to find out where he served and confirm his activities

 

Many thanks

Bea

From this detailed information I conclude you have already identified his service record as available on FMP (and presumably Ancestry)?

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Yes, I have found this on Ancestry. It's finding out the fine detail about pioneers and perhaps the location my Grandad would have served. 

[DavidOwen]

For that you will need a Royal Engineers expert, hopefully one will be along soon!

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Thank you. Looking forwards to hearing anything they may be able to tell me.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bea E Holland Stanyer said:

Henry Holland   66647  was in 3rd Btn Suffolk Rgt Feb 1919,

53rd Btn Bedfordshire ,went to Dunkirk from Dover 5th March 1919

Posted to Eastern Division Signals on 25th May 1919 Army of the Rhine no. 2674 Rgt no. 618340 -  Pioneer 27th May 1919 This bit really interests me

demob'd Ripon 11th Oct 1919

Id love to find out where he served and confirm his activities

 

Many thanks

Bea

A few off the cuff remarks until one of the experienced genealogists who frequent the forum can take a look.

For all the regiments with two regular (professional) battalions (a few had four) the 3rd Battalion was the principal Reserve battalion and commonly used as a holding unit for men in limbo awaiting allocation to an operational unit.  I suspect that was your grandfathers initial unit upon enlistment.

For the younger men called forward in tranches upon reaching their birthdays 53rd battalions were established as “Young Soldier” units for most, but not all infantry regiments, where they received a year or so of training to get them ready to be sent to France**.  After the Armistice was declared and a British occupation force agreed to go to the Rhineland, several of the 53rd Battalion’s were sent to Germany to help make up the occupation force so that veteran battalion’s could return home and be demobilised.

Once in Germany a soldier’s daily routine included various administrative orders being posted on notice boards and details of duties, training courses and transfer opportunities regularly appeared.  My guess is that probably one of several opportunities was to transfer to the Corps of Royal Engineers as a pioneer.  These RE pioneers were a specific category of RE soldier without any technical trade, unlike the vast bulk of that highly specialised and (comparatively) highly educated corps.  These RE pioneers were in effect general duty soldiers utilised by that corps to carry out specific, routine type duties so as to avoid the wasteful misemployment of more specialised tradesmen.

One special branch of the Royal Engineers at that time was the Signals Service.  The Signal Service would have required a few pioneers on its unit establishments for similar purposes and I imagine that is what your grandfather did.  The RE pioneers did not last long as an employment group after the end of the war and had disappeared by the outbreak of WW2#.

** the Suffolk Regiment was one of those that did not have a Young Soldier battalion which is probably the reason your grandfather was sent to the Bedfordshire Regiment, which was one of those that did form a 53rd Battalion.

# a completely separate corps of pioneers was formed in 1940 because the basic need for such troops in high tempo operations had not gone away.

 

Edited 6 June by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

His trade on his service record was a Machinist so of value to RE.

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

His trade on his service record was a Machinist so of value to RE.

I wonder if he obtained that trade through service with the RE (I understand that there were eventually opportunities for RE pioneers to upskill).  I ask because his posting to the 53rd YS Battalion Bedfordshire Regt indicates that he was quite young and not yet reached majority, or age sufficient to be sent out to France.  However, I suppose it’s possible that he had been an ‘articled apprentice’ in civilian life before his call-up and that that is what was being sought on whatever routine notice it was that sought transferees when in Germany.

Edited 6 June by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

No it was the trade quoted on his attestation papers  although it does state as below (image courtesy FMP). He was compulsorily transferred "More advantageous benefit of the Service".  I would take that as the RE benefitting from him rather than vice versa, but that would be possible.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

No it was the trade quoted on his attestation papers  although it does state as below (image courtesy FMP). He was compulsorily transferred "More advantageous benefit of the Service".  I would take that as the RE benefitting from him rather than vice versa, but that would be possible.

That makes sense David.  So presumably trawled out from the 53rd YS Battalion as a better RE fit than Infantry.

Looking at the LongLongTrail for Bedfordshire Regt it shows they were not among the occupation forces sent entire to Germany so that also matches with an individual trawl out while still in the United Kingdom:

53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment.
Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 27th Young Soldier Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 10th (Reserve) Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regiment. A basic recruit training unit based at Clipstone Camp, it was part of 2nd Reserve Brigade. In early 1918 it moved to Cannock Chase.

NB.  Interesting that he went directly to the Signal Service RE, but as a RE pioneer employment group, rather than, e.g. signaller, or linesman.

Edited 6 June by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

It would probably help if I posted the preceding page too (courtesy FMP)

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

It would probably help if I posted the preceding page too (courtesy FMP)

All done in the space of a single month.  That is pretty impressive.  I’m rather intrigued by the mention in the topmost annotation dated 21.11.18 of permanent posting to 3rd Bn Suffolk Regt under “E.C. (or E.G.) Secret Letter!”  Can’t help but think that’s an overhyped designation.

Edited 6 June by FROGSMILE

[Terry_Reeves]

As a pioneer he did not have an appropriate skilled trade.  He would have been allocated to any number of tasks not requiring a skill in the unit, which could have included working with skilled men. 

8 Divisional Signal Company has a war diary that covers early 1919 and includes entries that show men being transferred to the Army of Occupation although, other than NCOs, they are not named, nor are the units they are being transferred to.

8 Divisional Signal Company War Diary can be downloaded from the TNA website free of charge once  registered.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053371

TR

Edited 6 June by Terry_Reeves

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

 

As a pioneer he did not have an appropriate skilled trade.  He would have been allocated to any number of tasks not requiring a skill in the unit, which could have included working with skilled men

 

Thank you Terry, that had been my understanding.

[Bea E Holland Stanyer]

Thank you for this guys. It's fascinating. I have no idea what a secret letter is! Does sound intriguing. I never met my Grandfather but I know from conversations with my Dad that he was a very tough and formidable man. Post war, he rose to become a tunnel foreman for Balfour Beatty and worked on several projects one of the last being the Woodhead Tunnel. He was known as a straight talking man and one who could command large groups of navvies. Pretty impressive for someone born in a field near Saltash Bridge.